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-   -   Cam Choice? (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/429-460-engine-talk/83557-cam-choice.html)

Silverback51 11-04-2007 07:30 AM
Cam Choice?
 
Looking for some input on this.

The current engine has a blown headgasket, so as long has I have to pull the engine (it has head studs, not bolts) I'm going to slip in a new 514 crate motor. Anyway, that's the excuse I gave the wife, and I sticking to it unless I can come up with a better one.

The current engine is a 466BB with a Crane Cams 359351 hydraulic roller. Not a bad cam, but I want something with a little more lope to it. Spec's on the Crane cam is .590/.614 lift, 228/238 duration.

The hydraulic flat tappet cam that comes with the 514 seems pretty nice, but I would really like a hydraulic roller. Has anyone replaced there stock cam with a roller a hydraulic roller?

Any input will be appreciated.

Thanks

jtart2 11-04-2007 09:18 AM
No answer, but question
 
Sorry, I don't have a cam answer for you, but do you think the handling of the big block is seriously affected in the cobra. Guys keep telling me that the big block is too heavy and will be hard to steer "streetwise". I really want the sound and power of the big block, but I don't want to drive a car that can only go straight!

I met a guy with a 302 bored to a 347 with a nice cam that sounds like a big block. With all the fitting/hood clearance issues and the extra cost, do you really think the big block is worth it?
Thanks,
Joe...FCO (Future Cobra Owner)

Silverback51 11-04-2007 09:41 AM
Well Joe, I'm relatively new to the Cobra world myself, so I'm really not the one to give your firm answers, however I will give you my opinion and pass along what I know.

The BB with aluminum heads is less that 200 pounds heavier. And some will put it at closer to 100 pounds.

I don't care what you do with a small block, it will never sound like a BB. Once again, my opinion.

I have always been a BB fan regardless of the manufacturer, so my opinion is biased.

I only test drove a SB, but to me the weight difference was not that noticable.

jtart2 11-04-2007 10:12 AM
Thanks for your opinion. I'm still leaning towards the BB!
JOE

jtart2 11-04-2007 10:13 AM
There's a couple of people nearby who are selling 460's for like $250 and $350 for the complete engine. I'm going to have to jump on it before I lose a good deal.

CarsByCarl 11-06-2007 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback51
Looking for some input on this.

The current engine has a blown headgasket, so as long has I have to pull the engine (it has head studs, not bolts) I'm going to slip in a new 514 crate motor. Anyway, that's the excuse I gave the wife, and I sticking to it unless I can come up with a better one.

The current engine is a 466BB with a Crane Cams 359351 hydraulic roller. Not a bad cam, but I want something with a little more lope to it. Spec's on the Crane cam is .590/.614 lift, 228/238 duration.

The hydraulic flat tappet cam that comes with the 514 seems pretty nice, but I would really like a hydraulic roller. Has anyone replaced there stock cam with a roller a hydraulic roller?

Any input will be appreciated.

Thanks
There's really no performance advantage to a hyd roller and as long as you use the proper oil with the flat tappet it'll actually be more durable than a roller. If you want something with more lope at idle you'd be just as well off going to a different flat tappet cam.

bobcowan 11-06-2007 11:02 AM
A year or so Street Rodder mag did a test of roller vs. flat. The hydraulic roller starts to make more power than flat tappets with "big" cams. Like above 280'ish duration. Below that, there doesn't seem to be much advantage performance wise.

Another big issue is durability. Flat tappets are going south at an amazing rate. Part of it is oil, and part of it poor quality of the available tappets. Whatever the reason, I would be inclined to use a roller just to avoid it. It's expensive, but may save a lot of money and time later on.


When picking a cam, carefully read the description in the catalog. remember that bigger cubes / strokers / forced indutcion tend to soften the cam. Pick the cam you want, then go one step up.

CobraEd 11-06-2007 11:09 AM
For more of a racy/lopy idle, go with a tight lobe separation 106 -108 vs 112 - 114 degrees. This provides much higher peak hp and a really good sounding engine both at idle with its lope, as well as at high rpm under load. Most people only think of gross duration, but if you go too high there, it will kill low end torque. Talk with Crane or Comp Cams about lobe separation angle. they can tell you all the details. Or do a oogle search.

Ed


.

fordracer 12-03-2007 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarsByCarl
There's really no performance advantage to a hyd roller and as long as you use the proper oil with the flat tappet it'll actually be more durable than a roller.
I have to disagree with you on this. Ford has been running roller lifters since 1985 and I believe GM started in 1986. If durability were an issue the manufacturers wouldn't use them in 100,000+ mile motors.

As for performance, just the reduced friction and resulting oil temp is enough for me. Also a roller follows the cam precisely allowing for faster opening ramps.

CarsByCarl 12-04-2007 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fordracer
I have to disagree with you on this. Ford has been running roller lifters since 1985 and I believe GM started in 1986. If durability were an issue the manufacturers wouldn't use them in 100,000+ mile motors.

As for performance, just the reduced friction and resulting oil temp is enough for me. Also a roller follows the cam precisely allowing for faster opening ramps.
Well, a stock roller cam with low duration and low lift isn't subject to the same abuse as a performance roller with long duration, more aggresive lobe profiles, and higher lifts. Anyone expecting 100,000+ mile durability from a 385 series with a roller cam of any kind is going to be sorely dissapointed.

The biggest problems with hyd rollers in the 385 series are the weight of the lifter itself, and the undesirable pushrod angles resulting from the taller lifter. Some people run them without any problems, but as an engine builder it's not something I'm going to recommend to anyone. At the end of the day, If you're looking for more performance than a hyd flat tappet can offer, a hyd roller is not the answer in my opinion.

fordracer 12-04-2007 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarsByCarl
Well, a stock roller cam with low duration and low lift isn't subject to the same abuse as a performance roller with long duration, more aggresive lobe profiles, and higher lifts. Anyone expecting 100,000+ mile durability from a 385 series with a roller cam of any kind is going to be sorely dissapointed.
Two maybe three words, Corvette Z06 and Viper. Both production based and making well over 500 hp. This cannot be done with displacement alone. Corvette, 505hp@6300rpm with a bore x stroke of 4.13 x 4.00. Viper, 600hp@6100rpm with a bore x stroke of 4.06 x 3.96. That's some mighty high hp numbers AND rpm for a 427 and 505 cu/in. without the help of a mighty stout cam

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarsByCarl
The biggest problems with hyd rollers in the 385 series are the weight of the lifter itself, and the undesirable pushrod angles resulting from the taller lifter. Some people run them without any problems, but as an engine builder it's not something I'm going to recommend to anyone. At the end of the day, If you're looking for more performance than a hyd flat tappet can offer, a hyd roller is not the answer in my opinion.
I've done a few flat cam to hyd. roller conversions and an invaluable tool in my box is a pushrod length checker. I trust you do a sweep on the valve stem to check the rocker arm contact area?? If the lifter is too tall, use a shorter pushrod. This is another plus in the roller hat in that a shorter pushrod flexes less.


Please dude, I'm not picking on you personally. If you have been in business for any length of time you KNOW how customers are.

Here's the scenario:

YOU SAY, "Now, mr. customer, be sure to add a bottle of GM Engine Oil Suppliment at every oil change to your 460 and your cam won't flatten a lobe and it will make 500hp forever."

THEY HEAR, " BLAH, BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH your 460 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH will make 500 hp forever."

I am finished, you have your mind set and I cannot change it. How about this, throw a hyd. roller in one of your engines and see what happens. I'm not talking a radical change, roughly the same duration, lift, lobe center and separation.

Tom Wells 12-05-2007 05:02 AM
Carl,

Please don't tell my 521 anything. It has the Crane 359351 w/hydraulic rollers, and has been 20,000++ miles on the street, and many many hot laps at Roebling Road, Sebring, Summit Point and so on without a cough.

Gosh I hope it can't read this thread! :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Tom

CarsByCarl 12-05-2007 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fordracer
Two maybe three words, Corvette Z06 and Viper. Both production based and making well over 500 hp. This cannot be done with displacement alone. Corvette, 505hp@6300rpm with a bore x stroke of 4.13 x 4.00. Viper, 600hp@6100rpm with a bore x stroke of 4.06 x 3.96. That's some mighty high hp numbers AND rpm for a 427 and 505 cu/in. without the help of a mighty stout cam



I've done a few flat cam to hyd. roller conversions and an invaluable tool in my box is a pushrod length checker. I trust you do a sweep on the valve stem to check the rocker arm contact area?? If the lifter is too tall, use a shorter pushrod. This is another plus in the roller hat in that a shorter pushrod flexes less.


Please dude, I'm not picking on you personally. If you have been in business for any length of time you KNOW how customers are.

Here's the scenario:

YOU SAY, "Now, mr. customer, be sure to add a bottle of GM Engine Oil Suppliment at every oil change to your 460 and your cam won't flatten a lobe and it will make 500hp forever."

THEY HEAR, " BLAH, BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH your 460 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH will make 500 hp forever."

I am finished, you have your mind set and I cannot change it. How about this, throw a hyd. roller in one of your engines and see what happens. I'm not talking a radical change, roughly the same duration, lift, lobe center and separation.

We all have different opinions I guess. My opinions are based on actual experience with the 385 series. Building 385 series engines is what I do for a living, and yes I'm familiar with how to set up proper valvetrain geometry. It gets done on every engine that goes out my door.

A Z06 and a Viper are not the same as a 385 series. But I guess you wouldn't know that.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordracer, in the FE vs. 385 thread
I have no experience with either engine, my gut says the FE would walk away from a 385.
The original poster here asked a question and I gave my opinion. It's different than yours. Lets leave it at that.

CarsByCarl 12-05-2007 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wells
Carl,

Please don't tell my 521 anything. It has the Crane 359351 w/hydraulic rollers, and has been 20,000++ miles on the street, and many many hot laps at Roebling Road, Sebring, Summit Point and so on without a cough.

Gosh I hope it can't read this thread! :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Tom
Glad to hear you haven't had any problems Tom. Hope you plan to check the valve spring pressures regularly and change them out when needed over the life of the engine if you aren't already.

Silverback51 12-05-2007 03:05 PM
I want to thank everyone for their input, it's all considered and valued.

Differences of opinions are what helps others think about things and hopefully learn. It would be a very boring world if we were all the same.

I have learned a lot by the input I have received on this thread, and on this site. While I have had lots of high performance vehicles in my past, this is the first Ford 385 series I have owned. My true love was BB Chevies. :eek: Am I banned yet? No, guess it's okay.

So once again, thank you to everyone that replied.


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