Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[LMH]

If anyone finds an original COB for $150,000, please let me know!! COX too!

As I've said before, the whole argument about what is or isn't a replica is silly. There are only originals and replicas.

So where did the modern CSX cars come from? The bodies/chassis came from Kirkham for the aluminum cars. Kirkham used CSX3104 as the original to copy. So Kirkhams are replicas of CSX3104, as are the aluminum CSX cars. Where did the fiberglass cars come from? Well, I'm told Shelby used CSX3057 to copy for the fiberglass cars. So they are replicas of CSX3057. Interesting story about 3057 too. Might want to check into that!
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

If anyone finds an original COB for $150,000, please let me know!! COX too!
Larry

I tried looking for a recent sale, but couldn't find one easily. Hagerty's webiste has the value range from Condition #4 at $410,000 to Condition #1 at $740,000, as of August 2015.

I don't know if Hagerty represents current value or not, but if it does, the CSX4000 has a LOOOOOOOOOOG way to go before it hits that kind of money.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I tried looking for a recent sale, but couldn't find one easily. Hagerty's webiste has the value range from Condition #4 at $410,000 to Condition #1 at $740,000, as of August 2015.

I don't know if Hagerty represents current value or not, but if it does, the CSX4000 has a LOOOOOOOOOOG way to go before it hits that kind of money.

COX6010 sold for north of $800,000 last year. And it has quite a sorted history!
Yep... Looong way to go!
Larry

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I tried looking for a recent sale, but couldn't find one easily. Hagerty's webiste has the value range from Condition #4 at $410,000 to Condition #1 at $740,000, as of August 2015.

I don't know if Hagerty represents current value or not, but if it does, the CSX4000 has a LOOOOOOOOOOG way to go before it hits that kind of money.

I can't explain a fire sale price for an aluminum bodied Shelby at $150K but that car sold for the same price as a glass Shelby 427 which sold for approximately the same number at $148K on the same cite.

So what are the current sales of COB or COX cars? Way off the price of Shelbys of the same vintage for sure.

[REAL 1]

Oh, so it comes down to an invoice for provenance. I'll most my MSO from Shelby American. Provenance. Besides Mr. Mustang doesn't dictate or decide whats a replica or not. At least not for me. Maybe for you though.

I'll stick to the Registry.

[REAL 1]

Some "spoon feeding" before beddy bye. Not that it will help but here goes.

Open wide....

4th Edition World Registry of Cobras & GT40s.

A. Every effort has been made to insure that everything printed in this book is as accurate as possible.....Any inaccuracies brought to our attention will be corrected in the next edition. (Note to Ned and the sour grapes bunch....write to them now)

B. This Registry is the end result of more than 30 years of in-depth research, information collecting and various attempts at verification of these cars. All of this has been done by a small number of supremely dediccates enthusiasts whose only reward is the knowledge that they have worked to the best of their abilities to produce something that solidifies the history of the cars created by Shelby American and the companies affiliated with it. ....As a totality it defines waht Cobras and Ford GTs are and specifically identifies the ones fit that definition. (Hey, whatdya know my Cobra is listed in there!!!)

C. Each Cobra carries a unique serial number allow authentic cars to be easily identified. By keeping track of these serial numbers as well as individual histories and chain of ownership of the cars, registrars are able to assist club members in telling the difference between real cars and fake ones. (Continuation Cobras have their own Registrar, Kevin Rodgers..I guess we don't need him...hey Kevin, your fired.)

D. The second reason why the number of fake Cobras has been greatly reduced is taht Shelby is now offering a new generation of Cobra roadsters. No one is seriously attempting to convince anyone taht these cars are "originals"-that is to say, they are the same cars built and sold between 1962 and 1968. But they are very close, mechanically and cosmetically, and they are built by Carroll Shelby. So while not "original"", they are authentic.

E. As soon as the first fiberglass bodied Cobra kits were built, they were being called "replicas". This is not really an accurate description because they are not by definition, replicas. Webster's dictionary defines, "replica" as ...1) a reproduction or copy of a work of art; especially a copy made by the maker of the original 2) any very close reproduction or facsimile".....By this definition AC Cars was quite correct to refer to the race cars they built on chassis numbers 2136, 2137, 2138, 2154, 2156 and 2157 as "LeMans Replicas". Likewise, kit cars are definitely not very close reproductions of the original Cobra. ...Calling them "replicas" is a misuse of the word. But like toothpaste, once out it is impossible to get back int eh tube. So we're stuck with the label "Cobra replica".

F. SAAC has established some working definitions for describing Cobras because most descriptions are written by the cars' owners, some of whom are not above acting in their own self interest. (Seems like some Registrars/curators have that same problem).

G. -Kit car or Replica. Any car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind of frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

-CSX4000. Current Production Cobras built by Shelby to more or less original 427 SC standards; delivered without engine and transmission.

H. Production figures for Cobras as of publishing printed on page 31 which include production for Continuation Cobras.

I. As to the creation of the original Cobra....." Shelbys new car may have resembled the AC's old one but there was a world of difference under the skin."...." A list of changes were was made and sent to AC Cars with eh order to modify the chassis as indicated and commence production"

J. Rem has been variously described as a mechanic, fabricator and engineer but he is an engineering genius who solved every problem that cropped up on the Cobras-both production and race cars.

K. As Shelby began to settle into the role of manufacturer, he discovered a myriad of problems to be solved and obstacles to be overcome: sourcing and obtaining parts; completing cars as they arrived; building a dealer network, creating marketing and advertising campaign. Cobras were shipped by boat from AC Cars without engines, radiators, transmissions or driveshafts to save import duties, which were higher on finished cars than on complete ones (Sounds like the kit car of it's day to me based on the definition of many on this cite)

L. Under contract from Shelby Americanl, AC Cars Ltd. in England produced Cobra chassis and AC either manufactured or subcontracted most the other components that went to make up the CSX series Cobras.

M. Shelby American, as a corporate entity, was in more or less continuous operation ever since the Los Angeles airport facility was closed down in the fall of 1967.

Hey, I didn't say the above SAAC did. Take it up with those potatoes.

Good night.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't explain a fire sale price for an aluminum bodied Shelby at $150K but that car sold for the same price as a glass Shelby 427 which sold for approximately the same number at $148K on the same cite.

So what are the current sales of COB or COX cars? Way off the price of Shelbys of the same vintage for sure.

You don't read well. Look at my previous reply to RK.
Larry

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

If anyone finds an original COB for $150,000, please let me know!! COX too!

As I've said before, the whole argument about what is or isn't a replica is silly. There are only originals and replicas.

So where did the modern CSX cars come from? The bodies/chassis came from Kirkham for the aluminum cars. Kirkham used CSX3104 as the original to copy. So Kirkhams are replicas of CSX3104, as are the aluminum CSX cars. Where did the fiberglass cars come from? Well, I'm told Shelby used CSX3057 to copy for the fiberglass cars. So they are replicas of CSX3057. Interesting story about 3057 too. Might want to check into that!
Larry

Please. If anyone has info on COB or COX sales post them please. I'm willing to bet those numbers are waaaay below Shelbys of the same vintage.

And where did the Cobra body come from?.... the AC Ace. Your point is what??? So the original Cobras are replicas of the Ace? Where did the Ace shape come from? The Barchetta? So I guess the Ace is a replica of that?

You obviously can't grasp basic concepts. The two originals were used to produce the correct shape. They could have created bucks. They could have produced the shape in a number of other ways.

You can't grasp the fact the issue is the end product and where it comes from and what it legally is. Your analysis is on the initial process of getting the shape?? Uh, Ooookay.

If you don't have a Registry buy one. If you have one read it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Please. If anyone has info on COB or COX sales post them please. I'm willing to bet those numbers are waaaay below Shelbys of the same vintage.

But that wasn't your earlier point. Your earlier point was that the Shelby CSX4000 values are approaching COB values. And they're clearly not. CSX4000's at $150,000 does not equal the COB's value of around $800,000, give or take $50,000.

The relationship between the values of the Shelby and COB Cobra is just more schtick by you to insult Ned. Not cool. Not cool at all.

[ERANJ]

I guess one of the "dumb jurors" that was referred to in earlier threads .

Which ones, most all of them. Take a subjective look at all the oppossing threads. He is not stating anything false nor overstating his position based on the content of the Registry. He is simply stating the Continuation Series are not part of the original 3000 Series but the original manufacturer continuing production of a Shelby Cobra.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

Which ones, most all of them. Take a subjective look at all the oppossing threads. He is not stating anything false nor overstating his position based on the content of the Registry. He is simply stating the Continuation Series are not part of the original 3000 Series but the original manufacturer continuing production of a Shelby Cobra.

Well, yes he is. Right off the bat, the original company ceased to exist when Venture purchased a 75% stake in the new venture and then subsequently IPO'ed the new company. So, the original company no longer makes the Shelby CSX replicas. That's just one falsehood. That's being objective.

And a car built using different materials by a different company in a different era and delivered to the consumer in a considerably different fashion is a REPLICA.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

I guess one of the "dumb jurors" that was referred to in earlier threads .

Which ones, most all of them. Take a subjective look at all the oppossing threads. He is not stating anything false nor overstating his position based on the content of the Registry. He is simply stating the Continuation Series are not part of the original 3000 Series but the original manufacturer continuing production of a Shelby Cobra.

The primary manufacturer was AC Cars Ltd which provided 70% of a completed car to Shelby. All Shelby did was put in a motor and transmission, already designed by AC for a quick drop-in installation. If you want to pin the tail on the donkey then AC Cars is the "original manufacturer", not Shelby.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

The primary manufacturer was AC Cars Ltd which provided 70% of a completed car to Shelby. All Shelby did was put in a motor and transmission, already designed by AC for a quick drop-in installation. If you want to pin the tail on the donkey then AC Cars is the "original manufacturer", not Shelby.

Significant supplier but not the manufacturer. Shelby completed the car and issued the MSO so not the original manufacturer. Doesn't matter if they only put one screw on the car.

Great example of putting a slant on the reality of the topic, however no basis to the point at hand.

[ERANJ]

Interesting that you referenced Hagerty. Just noticed that they include CSX 4000 under the same category as 1965 2000 and 3000 series cars. Aluminum cars well over 200K.

[ERANJ]

May have to fact check this....is that any different than Chrysler going bankrupt being acquired by Fiat (not sure how the stock changed?) and essentially Chrylser corperation become a new company. So, the original company (CJD) no longer makes the Dodge Challenger replicas?

And the Challengers built using different materials (since the 1970s) by a different company (original Dodge) in a different era and delivered to the consumer in a considerably different fashion is a REPLICA Challenger. Both come with MSO form Dodge/Camaro and Shelby.

Only one that would hold true is Ford with Shelby Mustang GT350/500 or GT40 for that matter.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

May have to fact check this....is that any different than Chrysler going bankrupt being acquired by Fiat (not sure how the stock changed?) and essentially Chrylser corperation become a new company. So, the original company (CJD) no longer makes the Dodge Challenger replicas?

And the Challengers built using different materials (since the 1970s) by a different company (original Dodge) in a different era and delivered to the consumer in a considerably different fashion is a REPLICA Challenger. Both come with MSO form Dodge/Camaro and Shelby.

Only one that would hold true is Ford with Shelby Mustang GT350/500 or GT40 for that matter.

Jaguar is in the process of building 6 brand spanking new 1964 e-type lightweight cars. Jaguar refers to them as continuation cars. Each will be built to the specificaion of the last Lightweight E-Type delivered in 1964. (Note this statement from the press release makes no mention of "new old stock" parts, these are NEW vehicles using NEW recreation parts.) The cars will carry the unused Lightweight E-type chassis numbers.

Now, because Ford owned Jaguar, does that really make these cars just lowly Fords? How dare they try to deceive the public, for $1M+ each, on these lowly "replicas".

Go ahead, please go to the Jaguar forums and try to make the same arguments you are making here and see how long they will last. Good luck.

[mullen2]

Jaguar Brings the 1964 E-Type Racer Back to Life - WSJ

Love the E-Type! Follow the above link and watch it being built. I would bet the 6 New cars are better built than the originals. Man would I like to get my hands on one of them.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Jaguar Brings the 1964 E-Type Racer Back to Life - WSJ

Love the E-Type! Follow the above link and watch it being built. I would bet the 6 New cars are better built than the originals. Man would I like to get my hands on one of them.

I love them. I love the looks - lines, shape everything.

But if I were to drop $1M on a car (and that is what Jaguar says, and I'm sure they've all been sold, but I doubt they are only $1M) it would be for a untouched 300SL Gullwing. Another "coulda-woulda-shoulda" event.

P.S. The first comment on the article is from an original E-type (but not LWE, I think) owner in Colorado that DRIVES HIS!!!

[NewYorkGuy]

delete

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Jaguar Brings the 1964 E-Type Racer Back to Life - WSJ

Love the E-Type! Follow the above link and watch it being built. I would bet the 6 New cars are better built than the originals. Man would I like to get my hands on one of them.

there was a CC member (now banned from site) who put a down payment on one of these jags..