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-   -   Fine metal particles in PCV catch can (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/137586-fine-metal-particles-pcv-catch-can.html)

lippy 11-25-2016 06:17 PM
Fine metal particles in PCV catch can
 
4 Attachment(s)
I installed a PCV catch can and ME Wagner adjustable PCV almost 1k miles ago. I wanted the general benefit of a catch can (keeping oil from recirculating back into the intake) and I also wanted to see what/how much was passing through.

I'm not getting that much oil in the catch can. Probably 2-3 oz every 500 mi. But there is some very fine metal at the bottom of the oil in that catch can. No large particles, but just dust. Some of this could be from the threads of the catch can, which is pretty tight. But I'm worried it may indicate another problem (cam lobe, something else?). The engine seems to be running fine, other than oil consumption (I'm changing the intake gaskets again this winter). I'll get an analysis done next time I change the oil.

But could this be normal?

DanEC 11-25-2016 07:11 PM
I have a 12 Mustang GT with a PVC catch can and what oil I catch in it has somewhat of a light texture to it. Don't know what that means because the engine is low mileage, uses probably a quart in 4000 miles and is not driven hard. I wonder if it is some sort of particulate from the small bit of combustion leak by that gets into the engine valley??

Do you have a magnetic drain plug installed? If so, how much accumulates on it?

blykins 11-26-2016 05:05 AM
I'm not familiar with this setup, but after a quick search, it seems like it's pretty common with modern vehicles (Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, etc.). I think the general consensus is that it is coming from either a media at the top of the canister, the machining process of the canister, or the lid that screws on.

For a catch can to collect metal through something like this, it would have to be pulling copious amounts of it from the valve cover area. Most of your PCV locations are above baffled areas of the valve covers. The oil that's being sucked up is what's available in splash, or a vapor that's condensing.

undy 11-26-2016 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins (Post 1409823)
I'm not familiar with this setup, but after a quick search, it seems like it's pretty common with modern vehicles (Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, etc.). I think the general consensus is that it is coming from either a media at the top of the canister, the machining process of the canister, or the lid that screws on.

For a catch can to collect metal through something like this, it would have to be pulling copious amounts of it from the valve cover area. Most of your PCV locations are above baffled areas of the valve covers. The oil that's being sucked up is what's available in splash, or a vapor that's condensing.
I agree... I'm on the C6 Z06 boards and it's quite common. Like Brent said, most think it's coming from the "brillo pad" type filtering media in the can or the machining process.

lippy 11-26-2016 08:46 AM
Thanks. It would certainly be good if it were normal. But I would think if it were coming from the can or the media, I would only get the particles for a limited amount of time. Maybe a few hundred miles, and by then it would be clean.

blykins 11-26-2016 09:01 AM
Easy enough.....pull a valve cover and look. That can is only going to collect what the PCV valve sucks in and the PCV is only going to suck in what's right there at the opening.

patrickt 11-26-2016 10:02 AM
I bet it's nothing. But, for peace of mind, do an oil change and catch a mid-stream sample and send it off to Blackstone Labs. When the particulate count comes back nice and low, you'll sleep better.

G-Pete 11-26-2016 01:41 PM
With racing fuel aka. fuel without any additives you don't have that ---- and your oil is not that black.;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/germanp...m_DSC08557.jpg

G-Pete 11-26-2016 01:47 PM
Sometimes I shake my head when I see the guys spend $10-25k on a power plant and put the worst crap in the fuel tank to save a few bucks.

:confused:

fordracing65 11-26-2016 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Pete (Post 1409847)
Sometimes I shake my head when I see the guys spend $10-25k on a power plant and put the worst crap in the fuel tank to save a few bucks.

:confused:
All gas sucks these days. From a pump.

fordracing65 11-26-2016 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Pete (Post 1409846)
With racing fuel aka. fuel without any additives you don't have that ---- and your oil is not that black.;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/germanp...m_DSC08557.jpg
That fuel in the picture is $10 a gallon. I pay $2.12 at the pump. So it's a huge difference in price. And you can't fill up anywhere when on a road trip.

lippy 11-26-2016 04:04 PM
Can someone explain how different gas would dramatically change the amount of metal particles in the PCV oil vapor? I'm not getting it.

And to FordRacing's point, it's not just the cost, but mainly the impracticality of having to get 3-4 of those canisters and storing them every time you need to fill up.

patrickt 11-26-2016 04:17 PM
Funny you should ask...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lippy (Post 1409853)
Can someone explain how different gas would dramatically change the amount of metal particles in the PCV oil vapor? I'm not getting it.
Quote:
When a pound of gasoline is burned, about a pound of water is produced. Combustion also creates oxides of nitrogen from the air, and these oxides may form acids. Small amounts of carbonic acid, sulfuric and sulfurous acids, lead sulfate, compounds of chlorine and bromine, and other complex compounds may be formed. If combustion is incomplete, aldehydes are formed, and when knock or detonation occurs, even more complex reactions take place. During combustion, unburned or partially burned carbon or soot also forms, and it forms more heavily when the air fuel mixture is rich.
Most of these compounds leave the engine through the exhaust, but a small amount goes into the crankcase from blowby. Some fuels also form other undesirable decomposition products. These products are not only oil contaminants, but may interfere with the action of piston rings and affect engine cleanliness.
Source: Motor Oil Degradation http://www.le-international.com/pdf/...egradation.pdf

DanEC 11-27-2016 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt (Post 1409855)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanEC (Post 1409810)
I wonder if it is some sort of particulate from the small bit of combustion leak by that gets into the engine valley??
Well - that sounds amazingly like something I speculated about earlier. :)

DanEC 11-28-2016 08:51 AM
Lippy - you might clean out your catch unit real well and let it go for awhile and check it again. As a result of this thread I pulled mine off of my Mustang this morning and it had 3 - 4 oz of oil in it. It looked pretty clean and couldn't really feel the slight texture of fine grit I remember noticing the first time I cleaned it out. It's been on there for about 13,000 miles now. Maybe it is the filter media to some extent.

It's sort of amazing how much oil goes through that PVC system over time. I think about half of my oil use in my Mustang gets caught in the can. The first one I installed was on my supercharged Lightning PU as people were posting pictures of intercoolers loaded with oil after 20 - 25,000 miles.


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