None. Well, there are a lot of used vipers with less than 10K miles, for 50% 60% of the initial selling price. Almost new.

The relevance is that a viper is really a modern cobra. And, for not a lot of money, you can buy a slightly used viper, either already with turbos, or add them yourself, and have one hell of a ride ! Incomprehensible !!

I'm sure the price will come down...

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/1967-fo...tric-power.amp

69-70 GT350s were 3600#. '65s were 2800# and they went up just about every year in between. The majority of increase most likely due to mandated safety equipment. Here we are 50 years later and only 100# heavier.

Cars are safer nowadays right? Give me a break you still have to drive the car and have some knowledge and how to drive...

https://youtu.be/XPg9HkqyAg0

Until you can do that naturally aspirated, you’re not doing it. We can slap a turbo on a 289 and get that much power if desired.

I'm impressed
 

Personally, after having mourned the death of the muscle car after the last hoorah in 1974 (455 Super Duty Pontiac), I remain absolutely amazed and impressed that we're seeing 4, 5, 6 and 700+ HP cars being sold with factory warranties out of Detroit in 2019. What's there not to like about that?

Not to mention the fact that every modern American performance car - and a few 4 door sedans too - will absolutely annihilate their 60's and 70's ancestors in just about every possible measure of performance, comfort and yes - safety.

I have both a BDR (663HP built by Lykins) and a new GTR that just received a full bolt on & tune along with flex fuel option making a tad over 600 HP at the wheels (all 4 of them) that, by way of design will outperform most if not all of them even having less power. Why haven't American manufacturers come up with an all wheel drive offering to some of these muscle cars that would better utilize all of that power? I see American sport utility vehicles with AWD the are insanely fast. Why not the cars?

Cost and complexity I imagine are the reasons we don’t see more awd setups in domestic performance cars. However the mid engine C8 Corvette is being unveiled this month and rumor has it that an awd version with an auxiliary electric motor up front is in the pipeline.

All wheel drive
 

Weight of an all wheel drive system is one disadvantage as well as handling. Acceleration is unmatched but there is a trade off with curb weight and vehicle dynamics. The McLaren 720s will kill the majority of GTR's that have less than 1000 whp in a drag race and murder them on a track, Electric front drive might be the answer with its control flexibility. Porsche GT2 RS is 2 wheel drive even though 911 Turbo is all wheel drive but Bugatti, 918, P1 are all wheel. Although a 2 wheel drive 720s is right there with them. Everyday driving is probably superior with awd but for all out speed where handling dynamics matter, the answer is not so obvious.

I have a friend with a high boost GTR, he carries a spare center diff in his trailer and has needed it many times.

I have a 2016 Ford Escape 2.0 Ltr AWD. It's 280 Hp a little less torque - maybe 260. Compared to my 01 Marquis 4.6 Ltr with 230 or 240 Hp, it's a race car. The Escape is 400 - 600 lb lighter. There is absolutely no perceptible turbo lag. Full torque pretty much any rpm at the touch of the throttle. It has never spun a tire. It just goes, any direction you point it to.

I agree these SUVs are impressive, in their own right, but no where near the power of what we are talking.

On the one hand I can agree, but on the other hand apple and oranges. We had to do those things because the factory power was pathetic in the 60's. Today there is not much need to do anything. They even put tires on the car that work.

Us gear heads could always make tons of power, although street manors kind of sucked. Which has always annoyed me that car magazines always want to compare factory cars from the 60's to today's cars. Only grandma's were running a straight factory car in the 60's. Anyone who was a car enthusiast had modified just about everything from the Air filter to the tires and most everything between them. Few muscle cars were factory stock, back then. Everyone at least changed the tires and wheels. The tires that came on Hemi car's couldn't have hooked a slant 6 to the ground, let alone a Hemi. Then some idiot car magazine wants to run it down the 1/4 mile with the original tires on it, to compare to a modern what ever. No one actually drove a Hemi with those tires, after the warranty was gone.

Back to my point. You can say if it ain't NA it doesn't count, and that can be your opinion, but the power and performance is real. This is a new car with a factory warranty that can be a smooth daily driver and at the same time eat alive any 60's muscle car that you or I would have modified back in the day. BTW it meets emissions too. You or I never built such an engine, because that was never our goal. Today Ford has to meet all government regulations and delivered the best performance car they ever built. If you want to complain that forced induction is cheating (you said don't count), fine but you and I don't have to meet all those regulations, so are we cheating?

I think we can all agree that the ever increasing EPA regulations of the 1970's ended the muscle car era. Rapidly followed by the oil embargo, those two events pretty much ended the big blocks in cars, and brought back 4 cylinders and likely spawned the V6. Decades of cars that ran like crap, and engines that continued run with the key off (dieseling), followed.

50 yrs later and we now have cars that run almost perfectly with warranties that last longer than some cars in the 1960's. Safe cars with comforts everywhere. They even come with GPS systems that will guide you to a one lane dirt road in a national forest from West Virginia to Yellow Stone. Muscle cars now surpass any measure of performance you want to compare to the 60's, and yet we complain. No wonder things keep getting better. We are never happy with how good we have it. I guess that is a good thing. LOL

Well the current C7 Corvette Zr1 is already faster than the GT around VIR as seen here. It also spanked the GT in the 2018 Road & Track Lightning Lap.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ir-lap-record/

And now the next generation C8 mid-engined Vette has been officially launched promising a significantly improved performance envelope across the model spectrum. So far figures for the base model Stingray with 495HP show a sub 3 second 0-60 time for a base price under $60K. That lays down big expectations for the upcoming Z06 and ZR1/Zora supercar rumored to be AWD with a 200HP electric motor up front for a combined 1000HP.
I think the C8 will pose a threat to the far more expensive and elusive GT.

2020 C8 Corvette Stingray
https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/EXQ...rvette-005.jpg




Here's an artist's (me :LOL: ) rendering of what the Z06 or Zora might look like next to a base Stingray.
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/c8zora2.jpg

It's all good - whenever there are horsepower and performance wars, we the enthusiasts always come out the winner!

That new Vette is the next one to annoy everyone to death. It'll come with the ability to blip the throttle without even the effort of pressing down on a clutch pedal, just pull back the two paddles on the steering wheel simultaneously...the steering wheel with a flat, belly-clearing bottom. There's a 'loud' optional exhaust system available.

What kind of 'sports car' weighs 4,000+ pounds and carries golf bags at the furthest point from its center of gravity?

Golf on the infield between laps, anyone?
 

Well I'm pretty sure it weighs less than 4000lbs and regardless, it's as much of a sports car as any v8 powered mid engine 2-seater out there. Compared to the weights of the car itself and other components, I'm sure the golf bag placement will have little impact on the high speed handling dynamics. That is - assuming the the driver decides to do a few hot laps at Watkins Glen on his way to the golf course.

EDIT - It's also hilarious to hear a Cobra owner gripe about pissing folks off with a 'loud' optional exhaust system!:LOL::LOL:

Owners will be drifting and blipping/blaaaating around the country club's circle drive before rolling out and handing it off to the valet. I bet many will never get over 100mph, anywhere.

It will definitely come in at 4K lbs, fully loaded. It looks bloated and HUGE, ready to morph into an Escalade-sized SUV version, as planned down the road. Wheels are too small, needs SUV wheels to fit proportionally.

And yes, I have a problem with obnoxiously loud... anything. Especially now that it's fat bike time. At least everyone is working on development of electric bikes. Whatever happened to "speak softly and carry a big stick"?

The current C7 ZR1 weighs in at 3669 lbs and its still trounces the 3381lb, $500K FGT on a road course. How many of those are even going to be driven to the country club, let alone getting pushed to their limits on the track?:LOL:

The base 495HP C8 Stingray I believe is listed at 3760 lbs and is just a hair slower than the ZR1 to 60mph, so regardless of its weight, higher performance variants will be a force to be reckoned with.

The upcoming ZR1, like the Cobra, will speak loudly and carry a HUGE stick.:LOL:

Having said all of that though - nothing at all wrong with quiet. If Elon can put down the bong long enough to bring the new Tesla Roadster to market - that will change the performance game entirely.