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-   -   "The Black Ghost" SCAM ??? (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/146924-black-ghost-scam.html)

Blue66 05-22-2023 05:09 PM
Ok not buying the BS at all. On Halloween in 1969 I bought a 1970 Mach 1 CJ with the drag pack. I had just turned 21 in September. 2 weeks after I bought it I put on lakewood traction Bars and a set of CragerS/S rims. I drove it threw the winter saving $$$. March came an a set of Tubular Automotive headers and a cam was done an another set Of Crager's for some M&H roundy round tires . Plus a few month's later with a 427 med riser.. but thats enuff of that for now,

I was not the only kid that did this . Everyone had the racing bug bad . We all spent $$$ like drunkin sailors :JEKYLHYDE. The Hemi's and Boss 429 were NOTHING. A CJ killed it bad. Oh there was one guy that had a brand new Hemi he turned into a race car. NO stock car was going to be king of the street !!

This was the tread on the tires. Hey they worked :D
https://i.imgur.com/yp5q7inl.jpg

And the car .. YES I had hair then !!
https://i.imgur.com/b0OZoTwl.jpg

Car after I was done with it. $$$$$ pit.
https://i.imgur.com/UyWekhJl.jpg

Had already bought a 67 GT500 in 1972 an started thinking why I am sinking more $$$$ into the Mustang. Traded the roller for a 68 GT 500 roller. Then got into the Cobra an Shelby's kinda heavy.%/

mrmustang 05-22-2023 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys (Post 1517435)
1. Everyone wants to think that auctions are rigged and that the seller has shill bidders arranged by the seller or that the auction house is "in on it". Yet after two decades of watching Barrett Jackson and Mecum on cars that went for screwy money (either high or low) there has been no proof of those allegations. People are absolutely the worst secret keepers. If such collusion were really happening you'd have heard about it by now. There are a few "a friend of a cousin that knows someone that saw the auction is absolutely positive that George and Sam ran up the bid" but in no circumstance has an individual supposedly directly involved ever admitted it. So this remains an old wives tale.

The only auction shenanigans I am aware of happened at Barrett Jackson when someone was selling a Bugatti Veyron. The final bidder got the car for an absurdly low price. I was in Craig's sky box when having not been on the podium at the time came on and said that the bidder "lied" - he didn't have the money, was caught in the moment, and figured he'd get outbidded and was summarily evicted for life. Craig re-opened the auction with the previous bidder having first dibs but he rejected resuming the bidding and Craig ended up buying the car personally for the shill's bid. It still shows up at the Scottsdale auction with a BJ wrap on it - it's a "company car" and written off :)

2. Eleanors get screwy money. Just look at the last few that went at Barrett Jackson (I think there were 3 or 4). Now that they are "legitimate" (business wise, of course they're a copy of nothing) the reluctance to put them out there is gone and they still get top dollar. There's no logic behind it except that they are cool looking.

3. According to the feds capital gains ARE due on profit of auto sales (as they are due on art works - if you find a rare bowl for $5 at a garage sale and sell it for $5M, you owe capital gains.) Sell a car for a profit, you owe capital gains (but they depreciate like a rock and you don't get a deduction, unless you're a business.) Maybe some of Biden's 80,000 armed investigators can track down some and audit them.
Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.

Alfa02 05-23-2023 03:59 AM
I looked up the son (Gregory Qualls) as Uncle Tony did. This is what I found, a storyteller that will embellish your "Story" for money. I would say this does not bode well for Mr. Qualls story about the "Black Ghost" that no one had heard about on Woodward Ave. till 2020. He also said in 2020-21 that he would be handing the car down to his son, funny how money & fame changed that tune. That million dollars the car sold for was just chicken feed, compared to the PR, his company got!! https://fullviewpro.com/#

Alfa02 05-23-2023 05:02 AM
And lest we forget about the movie that's (already) in Production. I just bet that million dollars came from the budget of the movie, yet again another great PR tool for the producers, to hype the movie. Anyone want to take that bet ;)

1985 CCX 05-23-2023 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmustang (Post 1517455)
Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.
I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.

patrickt 05-23-2023 09:43 AM
I dunnno, if I spent a million bucks on a bag of magic beans, thinking that it would let me climb a giant stalk to get bags of gold coins and a magic harp, I would continue to believe in that for quite some time, even if the stalk never appeared. Maybe even forever.:cool:

Alfa02 05-23-2023 10:09 AM
How deep does this scam go???
 
I think the thing that irks me most about this car joining a "so called" HVA (Historic Vehicle Association?) which is some (made up?) Association by, WAIT FOR IT Hagerty!!!! How deep does this stuff go?? So in that case I vote to add my Father's 69 Saab Sonett II He was in the service, worked his whole life at a job, raised 2-good kids + ME ;) Bought the car (New) and raced it (With Proof) for 25years. I would bet 90% of the American people can say the same thing, about their dad's (Maybe without the racing part) https://www.multivu.com/players/Engl...020-inductees/

HealeyRick 05-23-2023 11:34 AM
If someone was fooled by all the hype one wonders how they ever amassed $1m to throw around on a collector car. Thank God Carroll Shelby never made up any BS stories to sell his cars.

tkb289 05-23-2023 11:59 AM
Comments from the buyer along with comments from the Mopar & Muscle Car community can be found on The Super Car Registry website ( https://yenko.net ).

Here is a link to the thread:
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=175665

mrmustang 05-23-2023 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985 CCX (Post 1517460)
I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.
When an item is being sold without reserve, and you are outbid (IE: you are the next highest bidder), and the gavel comes down, and the car is proclaimed as sold, both live on TV, and on their website......Yet comes available from the same owner/seller as was presented at the auction, but is still marked as successfully sold, with a seller/owner not stating anything like "the high bidder could not follow through with his/her bid", what would you call it? Then again, what would you then call it when the high bidder turns out to be the seller/owners employee, who came to Florida to help him clean and detail the car for the auction?

Similar situation, but a seller of a certain high value car, uses his wifes Ebay account to bid up a "no reserve" vehicle on Ebay....An account the seller had used in the distant past to sell with before he opened his own user account, with the same "terms and conditions" verbiage, including contact names and numbers....Well, back in the day, before Ebay started to mask off user names, there were easy ways to see such things.....Now of course you can still see a bit, if you know what to look for, and where, just not the actual user names.

Bill S.

HealeyRick 05-23-2023 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkb289 (Post 1517466)
Comments from the buyer along with comments from the Mopar & Muscle Car community can be found on The Super Car Registry website ( https://yenko.net ).

Here is a link to the thread:
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=175665
Interesting to do a search on the buyer's (TarheelRyan) posting history on that site. He's obviously committed to buying some cool muscle cars and isn't afraid of overpaying. And all that at the age of 42. I'm jealous. If I had unlimited funds there's a certain Baldwin Motion 427 Camaro that was a "legend" in my little hometown and I'd probably also throw stupid money at it. And I bet it would have wiped the Black Ghost, too.

twobjshelbys 05-23-2023 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkb289 (Post 1517466)
Comments from the buyer along with comments from the Mopar & Muscle Car community can be found on The Super Car Registry website ( https://yenko.net ).

Here is a link to the thread:
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=175665
The owners first comment here echos my sentiments exactly:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost...2&postcount=20

Quote:
As the high bidder of the Black Ghost, here is my 2 cents worth. It is a fully documented, triple black, "original" numbers matching Hemi Challenger R/T SE 4 speed with a gator grain top. The documentation for the car is in the top 1% of all Mopar's. As for the history of this car, I will listen to (1) Dodge Factory; (2) Hagerty; (3) Bob Ashton; (4) Dave Wise; and (5) the Qualls' family any day of the week over Uncle Tony's Garage.

Over the past 2 days, I have seen the absolute best and worst of the classic/muscle car community in its treatment of this car. As far as I'm concerned, it is a bad ass Hemi Challenger with a trailer hitch that has a pretty cool backstory...embellished or not.
It's a bad-ass Challenger that's for sure!!!

I tried again to watch the video and the guy just is so full of himself that I had to give up again. He reminds me of that your pillow guy who is just so grating on tv that I wonder how he ever sold any. When his assertions show up in the real press I'll listen to his assertions.

You might want to read this reply too:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost...3&postcount=48

Reply 59 has some insight from a former partner, no longer associated, as to Uncle Tony's Youtube persona.

Alfa02 05-23-2023 07:16 PM
Tony, I wouldn't have you go through another try with this "Uncle Tony" ;) Just the last 3-4 mins should do the trick. Remember, this Tony had seen the car in person 3-years ago, as its story was just getting started, and described it as 100% Stock, which it is. At the most this is a worn-out Stock 70 Hemi Challenger with 45 or 145 K miles, (80-120K value) and a (850-900K Story) Every town/city (In the 60's-70's) with pop. of say 50k or more had 1-3 Cars that could eat this Hemi alive, they ALL had stories. This car has no proof just stories like the rest. I remember a Metal Flake Green 63 Split Window with Blown (Sticking Out the hood) 327 4-speed, 4:10 rear (I drove that car) a 70 Daytona Hemi 4-speed that was not stock :) Just two that come to mind, in a Navy town (Bremerton WA.) of 35k people. Funny story about the Daytona, I worked @ a Mobil Station (17-19yo) and the guy always came to my station every Fri/Sat. night for $1-2 worth of Prem. (Prem@$.35 per gallon) and ALWAYS paid in Sliver Dollars!! Never let me look under the hood, never knew anyone that got a look. Fun Times.

767Jockey 05-23-2023 07:27 PM
When you don't like the message attack the messenger, as we usually do these days. I don't know this "Uncle Tony" guy from Adam, but what he says makes 100% common sense. How the hell does a bone stock 14 second car become "legendary" in a super competitive 1970's Motown street race heyday scene? It's just a ludicrous and unbelievable story.

Tommy 05-23-2023 08:07 PM
Let's not be in a rush to discount the opinions of the person who paid a million dollars for what he likely hopes is an appreciating asset. Surely he's objective about this matter.

Harpoon PV2 05-23-2023 10:11 PM
The sadist part of this whole story is, the car on it's own is a one of a kind. We know from the paper work, it is a Cuda with alligator vinyl top, the wrong hood from the factory, and the correct, dealer ordered Shaker in the garage all these years, plus some more things I have forgotten. A million dollars, no, but more then your average Cuda for sure! Cheers, Dennis

Alfa02 05-23-2023 10:22 PM
Challenger Dennis, but Yes Spot on, about (Real) Value ;) Oh wait?, maybe we're looking at this Bass-awkward. We sell the story and throw in the car for free, oh never mind that's what Hollywood already does. Hummmmm...

redvettx2 05-24-2023 05:07 AM
Scam? Do your homework prior to purchase. Did anyone put a gun to anyone's head. The car is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay. In this case a 1M bucks. 30 years from now we all may be wishing we bought the car when is sells for 5M. This was all marketing 101 done to hype the car and it was well done. He got 1M for the car.

767Jockey 05-24-2023 10:03 AM
I agree with you guys, lost in this whole ridiculous situation is the fact that this is a VERY cool car. A bone stock, very heavily optioned Hemi Challenger in near original, unrestored condition is incredibly interesting. I wonder what the car itself is honestly worth without the obvious bull$hit story attached to it?

Redvettx2, I agree with you completely on the definition of value. Anything is worth exactly what someone will pay for it. This buyer either didn't do his homework, or he believes the story and feels the story is worth the massive additional amount that he paid for the car. That said, it's still a scam. To me, and I believe to most, a "scam" is a dishonest situation deliberately fabricated and set up specifically to extract something of value from someone (typically money) for something of significantly less value in return. It's always based on some form of deliberate deceit in artificially inflating the value of the item offered. For example, false contractor calls to the elderly come to mind to illustrate this point. These sellers are lying. The story is very obviously false and completely fabricated. The story has only one purpose, which is to deceive some naive and unknowing buyer into artificially inflating the value of the car. This guy spent what he spent on the car. Whether or not he believes the story, or he got hoodwinked, that doesn't change the fact that is is 100% a scam. Someone who is elderly and taken advantage of is an innocent victim of a scam. This buyer isn't an innocent victim, he is simply a fool. That's on him. He fell for the scam. The fact that he fell for it doesn't change the fact that it's a scam that worked as intended.

767Jockey 05-24-2023 10:20 AM
I'm sitting here laughing as I write this. Back in the late 70's, when I was a young stupid guy (weren't we all?) on Long Island, NY, my friends and I were foolishly involved in street racing on a fairly active level. My car was a maroon 350 powered 1968 Nova SS. It was the typical small block Chevy setup of the day - headers, Tarantula intake, ported and polished double hump heads, 11.5:1 compression running Sunoco 260 gas, 650 Double Pumper, Muncie rock crusher M22 trans, Hurst Super Shifter, a 12 bolt posi rear with 4:56 gears, "cheater" slicks, etc. I took great care in the setup of the cars suspension, and it hooked like crazy. It was a 12.7 second car back in the day when that was a BIG deal. I wasn't a real regular street racer that the time. We raced on Route 231 in Babylon, NY. I would show up about once a month or so at the Burger King or Jack in the Box, I would pick my races carefully, and I usually won. I then went home to do whatever I had to do.

I can very easily spin what I did back then into the exact same story as this nonsense. I'll call it "The Maroon Ghost" :) It would show up on occasion. It would win. It would then "disappear" suddenly after the win into nowhere (my parents house, where I lived at the time), only to "re-appear" without warning only to win again. OOooohhhhhh - a "legend" in the 1970's Long Island street racing scene. :) :) :) Now the car is worth ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! That's hiarious!


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