Re: pre-oiling. Witnessed a Winston Cup Car mechanic last week working on a Cup Car 'cause the owner was too large to do the work himself inside the cockcpit :JEKYLHYDE: . He needed to start this said car [for a short blast to check ignition for safety switch install] and asked me when it last ran. I said, "2 weeks ago". He cranked for 5-7 seconds with no ignition 'til he saw oil pressure, then fired her right up. If we had been running a race, the full pre-heat, pre-oil would have been done, but this applies to a 90% all out 358CID race motor.

cobrashoch Ron I been a GM tech for over 20 years. I been rebuilding motors for longer in my back yard. 90% of the wear a motor does in the last 10% of it's life. How did the wear happen??? If you do regular oil changes and filters are replaced, the bearings ride on a thin coat of oil, Where does the wear come from?? If the oil keeps the 2 metal parts from touching all motors would last half a million miles. Sound like dry startups. In NHRA the top teams, not one is running a wet sump system and winning. There use the recover of dry sump to keep the oil off any spinning surface that can cause a parasitic load on the motor. Most of my cars and bikes have well over 100k miles on them. I have put a pre luber in my truck, because it is the last one I am buying. Someone else said in some conditions they remove the sparkplugs and crank for 10 seconds, Why?? To remove the compression in the cylinder and stop the rubbing of metal surfaces. It also cuts down on the wear and tear of the bearings. I run tight clearances in my motors if they are Aluminium because of the expanding rate of the metal. Everyone has a different Idea about this. Loose motors make more power, but are rebuilt alot sooner than tight ones. If you like putting bearings in after every 50-100 of engine running time, Have fun. Not me. We can talk about Carbs and Fuel injection another time. With the right throttle body and injectors, the carbs will lose every time on the same motor. I donot believe all that is shown tested in Mags like Car craft and Hot Rod are set up for fair testing. I will shoot you a e-mail next week about this. Have a good day, take the car out for a run. It's to early for the bugs to get in the super charger:) Rick Lake

Rick
 

As you know my motor is a pure race motor converted to the street. As such it has no ability for a wet sump system. ie it HAS to use a dry sump. I use a Weaver 3 stage system that provides 55 psi at idle with 10/30 Mobil 1 (Hot) at 8,000 RPM it has 100psi.

I LOVE this system. I dropped my pan and took a look at the thrust bearing and some of the rod bearings. Like new with well over 100 runs and 3,000 street miles.

To protect against a failed belt (VERY RARE) I have a system that sounds a horn and Warning light at 50 psi. With that much pressure at the alert I, hopefully will be able to "save it".

Now a couple of comments on some of the others questions. A dry sump system can be used with normal oil quantities. I "only" run 7 gts in mine so the tank is not large. Cooling is a non issue as my problem is trying to get the oil temp above 150 or so. Oh and I LOVE my stainless #12 lines.

Also on the issue of cranking for the pressure. Think about it. There is very little compression with the throttle closed. So I crank it for about 5 seconds and get over 50psi then tap the throttle a couple of times (no choke) and it fires right up.

As I said I LOVE this system because it has so much more flow than a dry sump. At least in "Buick's" anyway:)

See you in September...

Gents:

If I may weigh in with a few comments. I just skimmed the pages so if someone else said this, I apologize.

One of the critical reasons for a dry sump is to swirl the oil down the oil tank baffles to de-airate the oil. Air mixed with the oil does not cool or lubricate nearly as efficiently as just straight oil.

Now, most of us dream we are Mario Andretti and we really aren't. (Well, maybe Pat...). As such, there are numerous other considerations for our cars I think we should all consider when building a car.

First HEAT.

Rule #1 HEAT STINKS IN THESE CARS.

I personally tell all of my customers to run their engines as loose as possible. Does this decrease the life of the engine...debatable. (Tight engines wear more on start up and are much less tolerant of crap in the oil.) Of course, tight engines have more to wear before they wear out...

BUT,

Does any of that really matter to us? I am not sure. If the engine is tight, it will be hot. (Can't argue that one.) If it is hot we will not drive them as much as we really fantasize we wish we could. (Can't argue that one.) If we don't drive them because the engine is too hot, then what does it matter how long the engine lasts when we won't be around to use it anyway? If we really all sat down and told each other the truth, we would most all admit we shift at 5-6000 a couple of times and then have a grin so big we can't see any longer so we have to slow down anyway. (Keep going and the grin will soon be suplanted with an officer in the rear view mirror--which none of us want.) We shift a couple of times, we pass a few guys who are going "too slow", and in the end just end up crusing around thinking we are cool, (because we are). :D

The vast majority of us are street drivers in street cars and I seriously doubt the necessity of a dry sump or a race engine. Race engines stink to drive on the street and street engines are still way fun to drive on the track--even if we can't keep up with Pat. At least for me, my engine and car way outpaces my ability to drive it, and I don't think I'm too bad a driver either. As for me, I'll take a loose street engine any day over any even mildly built race engine and let Pat take the checkered flag at the track.

Now, if I could drive as good Pat, then I might have some other thoughts.

David:) :) :)

David
 

Re your>>>The vast majority of us are street drivers in street cars and I seriously doubt the necessity of a dry sump or a race engine. Race engines stink to drive on the street <<<

I'd like to disagree with the above...

Actually its really pretty easy to turn one into the other. I took my former Busch motor and tossed the Titanium valves, lowered the compression, kept the Jesel rocker arms, used a very mild circle track cam and have a car that weighs 2,300 lbs that turns mid 10 second 1/4 miles, idles at 8-900 RPM and has not been touched in the 3 years the motor has been in the car, except to check the valve lash and change oil and plugs. The 274 inch V6 can take on any production car that I can think of and get better than 20 MPG on the highway. As far as other Cobra's go there is always a faster one somewhere.

The dry sump has been totally reliable on the street and track. All in all you can turn a race motor into a fairly mild mannered street car if you use the right parts. Now some Cobra owners measure their pleasure with huge inches and gobs of torque. BUT that equates to a Harley vs a Hayabusa in motorcycles. Which one is more fun to drive? The answer is the one you enjoy the most.

As a Capt of a 747-400 I have plenty of time to enjoy power and stability. An F16 would be more fun though...

IMO, of course...

I have been a tech for Ford. Chevy. OMC Master teck,kawasaki , Brigs & Stratton , Volvo and Merk Lisin to Rick Lake

Rick - Not to debate the wear issue or to differ with your opinion I ask you the following question. Why is the service life of a normal production desiel engine around 400K miles, but in most production gas engines it's about 150K miles? And that's with normal oil changes for both. I know the right answer but it's a bit more complex than this threads contents need cover. I will say it has nothing to do with oil control systems or residual oil films on metal surfaces on startups. And that's basically why I largely disagree with a lot of your post above, and believe your trucks engine will wear out per normal mileage anyhow, regardless of what you think you've done. As for the dry vs wet and F.I. vs carb. we can debate that one forever. Maybe later. As I said above, I am switching over to a road racing dry sump late summer and the only REAL advantage I personally see with them is that they are for cars that get thrashed around hard. That's it! As for the drag dry sumps- they are NOT the same as a road race dry sump. You might check into that if interested, I know I did. I just starting looking into dry sumps about 4 months ago from a totally ignorant position, but I'm still learning though. I did call Steve Schmidts drag racing pro engine shop yesterday and that's what they told me too. P.S.- I've built a few engines too. (mostly Chryslers) Can we still be friends?
David- I concour on all, excepting Pat.

Pat Buckley - got your reply but I'm darned if I know how to get back to ya. E- mail me? It's good though.
rnldshock@aol.com
cobrashock

cobrashoch First WE are FRIENDS. Now A diesel motor has stronger parts in it, Then rod bearing are twice as hard in material as a gas motor. Diesel motor has min. of 17.0-1 compression plus a turbo for added boost. Gas motor on the street 10.5-11.0. Diesel top rpm is 3500 rpm, Gas is 6-7 grand Have you seen oil in a diesel after 3k , it looks like gummy black pine sap. Jet black and stinks from being burnt. Diesel motor as oil squarters in the motor to help lube and cool the pistons from heat GM has just started this with the ZO6 motor, Ford too on the GT-40 motor. A trucker will run 1/2 million miles and rebuild the top half of the motor, new sleeves and pistons and check the bottom end of the motor. The motor lasts longer because these motors are left running all the time. Look at any truckstop and see how many are idling. You can't compare diesel to gas, I know of 2 slant 6 225 dodges that have over 200,000 miles and have never been apart. Gasket replacement only for leaks. both cars still run great. My 85 chevy 3/4 ton was brought by my Dad, last year of the regular gas motor, as dual everything but no cats. 94k on it and runs great. oil pressure is 35 at idle and runs 60 lbs at 2450 rpm all day pulling a 35 foot 5th wheeler, it's not fast but gets 10 mpg at 60mph. The only thing it is starting to do is a puff of blue on start ups, the valvestem plastic seals are shot. I have a roadracing pan with scrapper on motor one and are also going with a dry sump for motor 2. I know that roadracing and drag racing pans are not the same. I will really like you if you are building HEMI'S:D :D :D. Back to you:eek: ;) :D Rick Lake

Rick- Sorta took over this thread didn't we? RE: diesels vs gas wear on engines when all things are equal. Missed the boat on this one old freind. None of the stuff above (well maybe a little of some of them) has a major part of the wear formula. That is determined by the FUEL you use more than anything else. More specifically the by products you get from the combustion process. Those by products dictate wear more than anything else because they show up as contaminates in the oil at both a micrscopic level and as corrosives in their chemistry. That's also why oils have additive packages, to counter the chemistry peice of this problem. Remember above I said "It's by far more important to change oil every 3000K miles?" That's why I said it, the oils additive package breaks down. But of course the oil itself remains stable. Scientific tests on this subject matter verify this wear relationship, and are out there on most of the internet oil companys web sites. In short, it's the fuel. Todays engines last in large part longer than than our 60's counterparts because the gas has less stuff in it to begin with. Together with better materials such as mollys, infused metal processing methods, etc. together with new techologys and today we have engines that last longer. In short, garbage in, garbage out. Later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
cobrashock

Want to make you car engine last as long as a 1.1 or 1.2 miooion mile truck?

1. Get fanatic about air filtering...big money, big systems, very complex and very effective and very maintenance intensive. (and fuel filtering)

2. Don't shut it off... If it keeps running, it will not "land" on any metal and will not show wear.

3. Get religous about oil changing and particulate (gas spectrum samples analysis of the oil to discover various failutes of oil, filters, fuel filters, valve guides, bearing journals, rings, piston skirts....before they cause engine failure or premature wear.

4. Build it loose. Big spaces allow big dirt, efficiency isn't affected until rings or guides gap, everything else wants lots of room. (That's why Ferrari's smoke...guide wear(clearances) that tolerates high rpm.)

5. Build from unobtainium materials, the best of the best...design for durability and torque.

6. Keep RPM's low....allows complete burning, lower mep's, least possible ring surface velocity and bearing surface velocities (to stay well within shear strength of oils)

7. Design unique transmissions for low rpm inputs with 18 gears in the hi-range...

And lots and lots more. Who bloody cares on a Cobra? 5000 miles a year max?