Overheating Issues, Perplexed

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

El,My So acts exactly as yours before your testing: T'stat opens at 180, temps while moving remain 180-190 (6000+ RPM) slowly inching up to 210+ standing still. . This has been the case for 17 years and I've lived with it and driven accordingly.

Charles, you bring up a good point. This is not a catastrophic problem here, especially after Patrick having jelped me work out a better level of timing and tuning last week. Its more a matter of me having peace-of-mind that no matter the situation, I am not putting the engine in danger of melting down. Houston is a BRUTALLY hot environment 9-10 months out of the year and I don't want to ever worry unless I have to. As Charles has done, I "could" manage this if I had to. But only after I exhaust all fan/pulley/shroud/radiator options. Besides, I love a good challenge.

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I think your going about it the right way and I have been going over this in my mind and it's starting to get "personal" with me.David

Well I love the support and sponsorship, but don't lose any sleep over this guys. David, hold off sending anything, I did score the 5.5" water pump pulley. I already had the larger 7" crank pulley so I am going from 6.5" on each to 7"/5.5." That should be a big change. And I have the 2700 cfm SPAL fan that I had on before this 3650 cfm. I am going to install the pulleys tomorrow eve and play with various locations front and back for the spal fan. I also have a HUGE shop fan that I borrowed to set in front of the nose. And I also located a dual puller in a plastic shroud that is supposed to pull 5000 cfm that I can borrow this weekend. Let me try some of these items next and we'll see what happens.

Thanks guys, more to follow.

[Cobrabill]

El-there is a guy on an FE BB that narrowed things down to pulley sizes as being HIS issue.I'll see if i can dig him up.

[Jac Mac]

Been reading this thread, since the 'problem' only occurs while stationary, perhaps a smaller fan on each side to ...PULL air out of the engine compartment are reqd... once underway they could be switched off or the setup would be to hook them up to a switch on the shifter so that they only work in neutral etc.

[DocDirk]

When I spoke with SPAL and Flexalite representatives they discouraged me from mounting pushers along with a puller, saying that the puller fan would interfere with getting significant added benefit from the pusher due to variance in air flow capacities....IDK, I'm installing SPAL's 45 amp 3600cfm monster puller fan to replace my 1900 cfm stock one this week. I have no idea whether it'll help... today I was advised that perhaps if I really want to improve cooling I shouldn't have my transmission and oil coolers in front of the radiator (even though they're finned cylinders, not radiator style). I'll move them and see what happens.

These cars are HOT!

Dirk

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Edelbrock just said their pumps are designed around OEM pulley specs. Was the 427 pulley setup a 1:1 ratio? That's about what I've got, though my water pump pulley may be a 1/4" smaller than the crank pulley. Its definitely not bigger.

I don't know what CS originally put on the cars back in the day....Looking at a factory/OEM mid 80's truck (small block), the crank pulley is 6 3/4 inches in diameter and the water pump pulley is 5 inches in diameter..I would think similar pulley sizes for big block factory engines... I took the measurements from the outer rim of the pulleys, easy way when still in the truck.......as you can see, the water pump is turning much faster than the crank speed....Your set-up is about 1 to 1, slowing down the water pump from a stock/OEM set-up....I've seen crank pulleys up to 7 1/2 inches with water pump pulleys as small as 4 inches, in fact, when doing all my testing, I ended up with a box full of factory pulleys,both for the crank and water pump of varouis sizes, probably have a dozen to 20 pulleys....crank pulleys are for small block engine, not sure if the water pump pulleys would fit a 427, but if they do, your sure welcome to try a smaller pulley if I have one that will fit your motor......

I think you said your crank pulley was about 6"s in diameter, with a 5" diamter water pump pulley, you would be overdriving your water pump by roughly 15%, I think this should be a minimum.....

David

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I ended up with a box full of factory pulleys,both for the crank and water pump of varouis sizes, probably have a dozen to 20 pulleys....crank pulleys are for small block engine, not sure if the water pump pulleys would fit a 427, but if they do, your sure welcome to try a smaller pulley if I have one that will fit your motor......

I think you said your crank pulley was about 6"s in diameter, with a 5" diamter water pump pulley, you would be overdriving your water pump by roughly 15%, I think this should be a minimum.....

David

David,

I think in my original post I said they were both 6.5". But on second glance today, as best as I can measure, my crank pulley is 6 3/4" and my water pump pulley is either 6 1/2" or 6 9/16ths, can't really get a good dead-on measurement and my large calipers walked off a few months back. Regardless, they are too close to the same diameter to achieve any overdriving. If you have a smaller OEM-style pulley, mine is exactly 2.5" in total depth, front edge to back edge. Shoot me a PM and we'll arrange to get it sent. There is no way this could do anything but help.

[G_Edmonds]

El,
Some factory shrouds fit close like yours with either single or dual fans. A lot had flappers or trap doors that are blown open while going down the road, and kinda sucked closed by the fans at standstill. So some sort of windows might help if you want to use your shroud. It does look good.
-Greg

[elmariachi]

I made another 20 mile run tonight and the car ran great just as before the shroud, 82C/180*F on the gauge down the highway, 95C/200*F at the redlights. Of course, if I sat there 5 minutes, it would probably spontaneously combust. There is no way I could drive around town here on a sunny Houston day, so its not acceptable like this.

I do think the additional holes in the t-stat and the straight-water made a difference to the positive. It doesn't heat up as quickly when existing the freeway as it did before, and it didn't vomit anything tonight when I pulled into the garage and shut it off. and I topped up the expansion tank when I left.

Based on all the feedback and the findings today, I am leaning towards either needing dual fans and a different type shroud, a bigger/better radiator, or both to manage the heat at idle. Turns out more Hurricane owners than I realized have battled this issue with FEs and this PRC 2-row radiator. Sounds like most have managed to contain it, but I need more peace of mind than constantly staring at the temp gauge and having to plan my trips around outside temp.

I still want to pursue the pulley issue too, but short of buying everything that comes along on eBay, I am not sure how to explore that option. Any feedback there on dimensions appreciated. One thing is for sure, you REALLY learn a lot about these cars and engines having to face a problem like this.

I had a bad dream last night it got so hot it burned the doors off of the car while idling in the driveway. I am hopeful those dreams give way to dreams of burning up endless miles of Texas blacktop at high speeds with bugs in my teeth.

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I made another 20 mile run tonight and the car ran great just as before the shroud, 82C/180*F on the gauge down the highway, 95C/200*F at the redlights. Of course, if I sat there 5 minutes, it would probably spontaneously combust. There is no way I could drive around town here on a sunny Houston day, so its not acceptable like this.

I do think the additional holes in the t-stat and the straight-water made a difference to the positive. It doesn't heat up as quickly when existing the freeway as it did before, and it didn't vomit anything tonight when I pulled into the garage and shut it off. and I topped up the expansion tank when I left.

Based on all the feedback and the findings today, I am leaning towards either needing dual fans and a different type shroud, a bigger/better radiator, or both to manage the heat at idle. Turns out more Hurricane owners than I realized have battled this issue with FEs and this PRC 2-row radiator. Sounds like most have managed to contain it, but I need more peace of mind than constantly staring at the temp gauge and having to plan my trips around outside temp.

I still want to pursue the pulley issue too, but short of buying everything that comes along on eBay, I am not sure how to explore that option. Any feedback there on dimensions appreciated. One thing is for sure, you REALLY learn a lot about these cars and engines having to face a problem like this.

I had a bad dream last night it got so hot it burned the doors off of the car while idling in the driveway. I am hopeful those dreams give way to dreams of burning up endless miles of Texas blacktop at high speeds with bugs in my teeth.

It seems like you have already been through alot trying to solve your cooling issues. I do think a pulley set which will speed up the water pump is probably going to help as others have suggested. Here's a simple test to decide if it will. When you car has been idling awhile and is starting to overheat, gentle rev it to about 1800 RPM and run in there for a few minutes. If the temperatures start to come down, I'll bet a pully set which runs the alternator and water pump fast that stock will help. I am doing this on my cobra (I have a 482 ci FE in an ERA) and it definitely helps. March makes a pulley set that will overdrive the accesories. The following link contains some information on their products for the FE family:

http://www.marchperf.com/pg38.html


I hope this helps you.

- Fred

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Fred;


I looked at the site the other day and again today and found this, doesn't make a lot of sence to me.......

Increases cooling by speeding up water flow and fan speed. This helps at critical low speed driving where most overheating occurs. Precision CNC machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum. Finished with a “No Polishing” clear powdercoat.

-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1912 1-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1930 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S.
1931 2-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1932 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1950 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S., A/C
1951 3-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1932 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1905 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator
1911 1-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1552 1-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1925 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S.
1931 2-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1562 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1945 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S., A/C
1951 3-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1562 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”

I have fairly new glasses and according to what I read on the March site, all the crank pulleys are smaller in diameter than the water pump pulleys listed!!!!!!!!!!! how can that speed up your water flow when your slowing down the water pump rpms?????? dem guys at March must have been smoking some really good stuff that day!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure if one called them, they would be able to get a water pump pulley of the size needed, I know March makes many different size pulleys............

David

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Fred;


I looked at the site the other day and again today and found this, doesn't make a lot of sence to me.......




I have fairly new glasses and according to what I read on the March site, all the crank pulleys are smaller in diameter than the water pump pulleys listed!!!!!!!!!!! how can that speed up your water flow when your slowing down the water pump rpms?????? dem guys at March must have been smoking some really good stuff that day!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure if one called them, they would be able to get a water pump pulley of the size needed, I know March makes many different size pulleys............

David

Note the size of the water pump pulleys in the standard vs the "overdrive" sets. In the later case, the water pump pulley is smaller which makes the water pump turn faster. In all cases, the water pump turns slower than the crank (imagine what the cavitation that a water pump would produce if you buzzed it to the 7,000 RPM or above that the motor runs at).

- Fred

[brettco]

No shroud and the puller fan with a switch you can run- that shroud is too close. I went through this also.

[elmariachi]

Thanks for all the help tonight guys. Dirk, if you would, please post the results from adding that SPAL fan.

Thanks,

Jim

[vettestr]

She heated up at idle but good at hi-way speed. Too help locate a W/P pulley check out any 70 thru mid 80's short style Chebbie pulley, those with Air Cond. had smaller diameters. Most aftermarket pumps have multiple bolt patterns so mounting will not be an issue. I think a 1970 Camero with AC should work fine. A larger crank pulley?
OH ya whats your timing at? lol.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by vettestr

She heated up at idle but good at hi-way speed. Too help locate a W/P pulley check out any 70 thru mid 80's short style Chebbie pulley, those with Air Cond. had smaller diameters. Most aftermarket pumps have multiple bolt patterns so mounting will not be an issue. I think a 1970 Camero with AC should work fine. A larger crank pulley?
OH ya whats your timing at? lol.

"Thou shalt not bolt a Chevy part to an FE...."

20* base plus 18*, 38* total. MSD 8594 mechanical. Advance starts at 1200 and all in by 3000.

[vettestr]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

"Thou shalt not bolt a Chevy part to an FE...."

20* base plus 18*, 38* total. MSD 8594 mechanical. Advance starts at 1200 and all in by 3000.

Well after the insanity you can still chuckle a little so life is good. Keep taking your medications, ....... immunosuppressives I mean to protect the rest of the Tupperware.

I hope you are in the home stretch with your cooling issues, keep us posted.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

El;

This is what I have on hand.........

4 or 5 Ford water pump pulleys,all 6" diameter (outside to outside measurements) and 2 3/4 "tall"...single groove,they are all the same pulley, how I ended up with that many is anyone's guess....

Then I "found" another, this one is 5 1/4" diameter,but it is actually a 3 groove pulley, if you were to put it in a lathe and cut the inner most groove off (I've done this a number of times)( the groove closest to the motor) it would be 2 1/2" "tall". the outer most (away from the motor) groove is a small groove, maybe for an emission pump or something like that...You could use it "as is" for testing purposes and then if it helps, modify it or try to find another the same diameter.......

The other pulleys I have are 7" diameter and 2" or less "tall"....that wouldn't help you.......

Let me know what you want to do, I can box up the 3 groove as well as one of the 6" pulleys if you want to expirement with them.....

BTW: checked on my set-up with my Mustang street car,this is what I have;

Griffin aluminum radiator, 26" wide total, 21" wide core,19" tall.
water pump pulley is 5 1/2" diameter
crank pulley is 6 1/2 diameter
running an Auto Zone 180 thermostat with 4 little holes in the flange
Flo-Kool high volume water pump
I'm guessing about 25% anti-freeze and the rest is tap water from the garden hose.
18" diameter electric fan I got from a body shop, it had one broken mounting tab and they were replacing it and gave me the old one, it works perfectly, came off an early to mid 90's GM car, I think maybe a Caddy or big a$$ Buick, curved blades, switched by a manual toggle switch mounted under the edge of the dash out of sight...

My water pump pulley is 2" 'tall' and for reference it came on late 60's/early 70's trucks/cars, mostly with no power steering/power brakes,they are the few that had single groove pulleys, you could possibly find one and "shim" it out to match your crank pulley. The crank pulley, I have no clue what it came off of, too many years ago, but I do remember it was a 3 groove pulley originally and I took it to my cousin's machine shop and in about 5 minutes he made it into a single groove pulley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last year's Forth of July parade lasted about one hour and the outsdie air temp was a tad over 100 degrees, temp of the hot pavement must have been 120 or more....Started out the parade with the fan on to keep it as cool as possible for as long as possible, car ran dead-on 180 degress for about the first 40 minutes, then the temp gauge began slllloooooowwwllllyyyy creeping up, by the time the parade was over, about 20 minutes later it had crept up to 200 degress, which I can live with, less than 2 miles down the highway at 50 mph, temp was back down to 180!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted it's not a big block motor (351-W,350hp,iron heads) and it's not in a Cobra (65 Mustang fastback), there's more room under the hood for the hot air to escape in the Mustang than a Cobra and I'm sure a 427 will generate more engine heat than my 351, but it can be done......

During the year or so I "played" with this, I tried 4 different radiators, 3 different thermostats,5, yes,5 electric fans and at least 5 different pulley combo's before getting the car where it's at today....

I wanted it to be able to idle at least 30 minutes while staying under 200 degrees and with the combo I have now, I easily and happily exceeded that.......

Let me know what you want to try and I can send you some pulleys.....or being your in Houston and that's only about 4 hours from me, drive the car on over and we'll change the pulley out here at my house and test it here. I've never worked on a 427 before, although I've seen a bunch of them....

David

[elmariachi]

David, thanks for checking in your box of parts, I think I have a line on a Mustang pulley locally that is 5.5" in diameter, still trying to confirm the belt backspacing. I also have a larger crank pulley (7") that I can use. So between those two I will have nearly a 25% differential. David, if this pulley doesn't pan out I'll let you know. On this issue of revving the engine, I don't see any noticeable difference when I do that. So while the pulley change may help, I am not counting on it exclusively.

If I get it up to say 100*C and kill it but leave the electric fan running for a couple minutes, the temp gauge climbs on up to 110C. But I can then start it again and immediately the pump exchanges the radiator and block water and it immediately drops like a rock by 10-15 degrees. Then I kill it again, wait with the fan on for a coulpe more minutes, start it again and I can get it from on down to 85C, all in less than 4-5 minutes doing this. To me this suggests that the radiator is capable of cooling, either it doesn't have the volume or the time to do so. EDIT>> or the airflow is still too low.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

think in my original post I said they were both 6.5". But on second glance today, as best as I can measure, my crank pulley is 6 3/4" and my water pump pulley is either 6 1/2" or 6 9/16ths,

according to my calculations (and that ain't gospel,I can assure you), your present set-up is 4% overdriven........If you switched to the 5.5 water pump pulley, you would then be 19% overdriven, quite a difference..............you would need a 5" water pump pulley to get to 25% overdriven with the 6.75 crank pulley........

If you can get the 5.5" water pump pulley, I think you'll see a difference, how much is anybodies guess, but, I'm guessing enough to make things a lot better....probably not gonna be much difference from the 6 3/4 crank pulley you have now, going to the 7" you have as a spare....only about 2%........

On the revving issue, I have done it and have seen the temp come down a tad, but not much, with the higher revs comes higher engine temp,ie,generating more heat in the combustion chambers than at idle......

David

[olddog]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

On this issue of revving the engine, I don't see any noticeable difference when I do that. So while the pulley change may help, I am not counting on it exclusively.

If I get it up to say 100*C and kill it but leave the electric fan running for a couple minutes, the temp gauge climbs on up to 110C. But I can then start it again and immediately the pump exchanges the radiator and block water and it immediately drops like a rock by 10-15 degrees. Then I kill it again, wait with the fan on for a coulpe more minutes, start it again and I can get it from on down to 85C, all in less than 4-5 minutes doing this. To me this suggests that the radiator is capable of cooling, either it doesn't have the volume or the time to do so. EDIT>> or the airflow is still too low.

If reving the engine does not drop the temp from when it was idling, then the problem absolutely is not a lack of water flow, in my opinion. Do not waste time on the pulley changes. You may get into problems at higher rpm.

On another post, I think you compared radiator sizes. If the radiator is of adaquate size for the engine, that is ruled out.

By turning the engine off and letting the fan run, then restarting you simulated what more air flow will do for you.

You also took the engine heat out of the picture. So, either the engine is making too much heat (lean, or timing issue) or there is not enough air flow. I think you proved the timing. If you measure the header temp you should be able to prove that it is not too lean at idle, at which point you will have eliminated everything, but air flow. There were many comments on things like opening the hood to see if it cools down. Have you tried any of these? I recomend you focus on air flow improvenents.

One other nagging thing that most every engine builder comments on from time to time is cylinder wall thinkness. I think it is pretty well documented that thin wall will cause overheating issues. I would think that would be when making power not idling. Maybe someone can comment on this.