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-   -   Overheating Issues, Perplexed (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/97316-overheating-issues-perplexed.html)

fkemmerer 06-02-2009 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi (Post 954324)
I made another 20 mile run tonight and the car ran great just as before the shroud, 82C/180*F on the gauge down the highway, 95C/200*F at the redlights. Of course, if I sat there 5 minutes, it would probably spontaneously combust. There is no way I could drive around town here on a sunny Houston day, so its not acceptable like this.

I do think the additional holes in the t-stat and the straight-water made a difference to the positive. It doesn't heat up as quickly when existing the freeway as it did before, and it didn't vomit anything tonight when I pulled into the garage and shut it off. and I topped up the expansion tank when I left.

Based on all the feedback and the findings today, I am leaning towards either needing dual fans and a different type shroud, a bigger/better radiator, or both to manage the heat at idle. Turns out more Hurricane owners than I realized have battled this issue with FEs and this PRC 2-row radiator. Sounds like most have managed to contain it, but I need more peace of mind than constantly staring at the temp gauge and having to plan my trips around outside temp.

I still want to pursue the pulley issue too, but short of buying everything that comes along on eBay, I am not sure how to explore that option. Any feedback there on dimensions appreciated. One thing is for sure, you REALLY learn a lot about these cars and engines having to face a problem like this.

I had a bad dream last night it got so hot it burned the doors off of the car while idling in the driveway. I am hopeful those dreams give way to dreams of burning up endless miles of Texas blacktop at high speeds with bugs in my teeth.

It seems like you have already been through alot trying to solve your cooling issues. I do think a pulley set which will speed up the water pump is probably going to help as others have suggested. Here's a simple test to decide if it will. When you car has been idling awhile and is starting to overheat, gentle rev it to about 1800 RPM and run in there for a few minutes. If the temperatures start to come down, I'll bet a pully set which runs the alternator and water pump fast that stock will help. I am doing this on my cobra (I have a 482 ci FE in an ERA) and it definitely helps. March makes a pulley set that will overdrive the accesories. The following link contains some information on their products for the FE family:

http://www.marchperf.com/pg38.html


I hope this helps you.

- Fred

DAVID GAGNARD 06-02-2009 02:27 PM
Fred;


I looked at the site the other day and again today and found this, doesn't make a lot of sence to me.......

Quote:
Increases cooling by speeding up water flow and fan speed. This helps at critical low speed driving where most overheating occurs. Precision CNC machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum. Finished with a “No Polishing” clear powdercoat.
Quote:
-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1912 1-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1930 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S.
1931 2-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1932 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1950 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S., A/C
1951 3-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1932 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6 3/4”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1905 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator
1911 1-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1552 1-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1925 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S.
1931 2-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1562 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
1945 Set Drives: Water Pump, Alternator, P.S., A/C
1951 3-Groove Crank Pulley 5 1/2”
1562 2-Groove Water Pump Pulley 6”
137 1-Groove Alternator Pulley w/Cover 2 11/16”
I have fairly new glasses and according to what I read on the March site, all the crank pulleys are smaller in diameter than the water pump pulleys listed!!!!!!!!!!! how can that speed up your water flow when your slowing down the water pump rpms?????? dem guys at March must have been smoking some really good stuff that day!!!!!!!!!:p:LOL:

I'm sure if one called them, they would be able to get a water pump pulley of the size needed, I know March makes many different size pulleys............

David

elmariachi 06-02-2009 02:42 PM
David, thanks for checking in your box of parts, I think I have a line on a Mustang pulley locally that is 5.5" in diameter, still trying to confirm the belt backspacing. I also have a larger crank pulley (7") that I can use. So between those two I will have nearly a 25% differential. David, if this pulley doesn't pan out I'll let you know. On this issue of revving the engine, I don't see any noticeable difference when I do that. So while the pulley change may help, I am not counting on it exclusively.

If I get it up to say 100*C and kill it but leave the electric fan running for a couple minutes, the temp gauge climbs on up to 110C. But I can then start it again and immediately the pump exchanges the radiator and block water and it immediately drops like a rock by 10-15 degrees. Then I kill it again, wait with the fan on for a coulpe more minutes, start it again and I can get it from on down to 85C, all in less than 4-5 minutes doing this. To me this suggests that the radiator is capable of cooling, either it doesn't have the volume or the time to do so. EDIT>> or the airflow is still too low.

DAVID GAGNARD 06-02-2009 03:11 PM
Quote:
think in my original post I said they were both 6.5". But on second glance today, as best as I can measure, my crank pulley is 6 3/4" and my water pump pulley is either 6 1/2" or 6 9/16ths,
according to my calculations (and that ain't gospel,I can assure you), your present set-up is 4% overdriven........If you switched to the 5.5 water pump pulley, you would then be 19% overdriven, quite a difference..............you would need a 5" water pump pulley to get to 25% overdriven with the 6.75 crank pulley........

If you can get the 5.5" water pump pulley, I think you'll see a difference, how much is anybodies guess, but, I'm guessing enough to make things a lot better....probably not gonna be much difference from the 6 3/4 crank pulley you have now, going to the 7" you have as a spare....only about 2%........

On the revving issue, I have done it and have seen the temp come down a tad, but not much, with the higher revs comes higher engine temp,ie,generating more heat in the combustion chambers than at idle......

David

razerwire 06-02-2009 03:28 PM
Have a 4" thick, 18" tall, 22" wide fluidyne radiator. one 16" puller fan with no shroud. two pusher fans just for looks , but can switch on if I want to, outherwise they freewheel. most important nose of car finished so all air has to pass thru rad. Also very,very,very important 20 deg tilt to rad. 468 fe engine ,las vegas, 80 deg c. 950 rpm idle 80 c. down road.
car does not overheat. Note 0 deg would mean rad. is vertical, degree finder shows 20 deg when placed on top of rad.

elmariachi 06-02-2009 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razerwire (Post 954575)
Have a 4" thick, 18" tall, 22" wide fluidyne radiator. one 16" puller fan with no shroud. two pusher fans just for looks , but can switch on if I want to, outherwise they freewheel. most important nose of car finished so all air has to pass thru rad. Also very,very,very important 20 deg tilt to rad. 468 fe engine ,las vegas, 80 deg c. 950 rpm idle 80 c. down road. car does not overheat. Note 0 deg would mean rad. is vertical, degree finder shows 20 deg when placed on top of rad.
Well that just about does it for me. :cool:

My radiator is 27W x19Hx3T and is tilted 25*. The off-the-shelf Fluidyne for Cobra is FHP30-SHELBY and is 23.65W X 18.0H X 3.5T. I am guessing this is not your radiator so did you have them make a larger one with the Cobra connections or did you use a different model? I just talked with them and they'll make a cusstom size with Cobra connections for $150 more. I guess I could go that route and just not send my kid to college $$.

For those who know, could I not use the off-the-self Fluidyne and just shroud the front sides to cover up the 2" difference on each side?

767Jockey 06-02-2009 04:26 PM
I don't see why not. For what it's worth, I have the off the shelf Fluidyne for my car, and it's beautifully made. My car is still in pieces (don't get me started on that......:CRY:) so I can't tell you how it works, but it really is a nice piece.

fkemmerer 06-02-2009 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD (Post 954557)
Fred;


I looked at the site the other day and again today and found this, doesn't make a lot of sence to me.......




I have fairly new glasses and according to what I read on the March site, all the crank pulleys are smaller in diameter than the water pump pulleys listed!!!!!!!!!!! how can that speed up your water flow when your slowing down the water pump rpms?????? dem guys at March must have been smoking some really good stuff that day!!!!!!!!!:p:LOL:

I'm sure if one called them, they would be able to get a water pump pulley of the size needed, I know March makes many different size pulleys............

David

Note the size of the water pump pulleys in the standard vs the "overdrive" sets. In the later case, the water pump pulley is smaller which makes the water pump turn faster. In all cases, the water pump turns slower than the crank (imagine what the cavitation that a water pump would produce if you buzzed it to the 7,000 RPM or above that the motor runs at).

- Fred

razerwire 06-02-2009 05:58 PM
It would seems to me that the water has to stay in the rad for a time so the exchange from air to water can take place. I show size and tilt of rad. in my post so you know it can be cooled. Tilt will effect the transfer of water to air going down the road. Running the water thru the rad. to fast will not give the rad. a chance to exchange heat.

elmariachi 06-02-2009 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey (Post 954606)
I don't see why not. For what it's worth, I have the off the shelf Fluidyne for my car, and it's beautifully made. My car is still in pieces (don't get me started on that......:CRY:) so I can't tell you how it works, but it really is a nice piece.

My problems PALE in comparison to yours. I am sure you'd LOVE to be chasing an overheating problem in your newly completed car. I am feeling for ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razerwire (Post 954639)
It would seems to me that the water has to stay in the rad for a time so the exchange from air to water can take place. I show size and tilt of rad. in my post so you know it can be cooled. Tilt will effect the transfer of water to air going down the road. Running the water thru the rad. to fast will not give the rad. a chance to exchange heat.
Well that's exactly what I thought, though I have had two radiator companies (one of which was PRC who supplied my Hurricane radiator) tell me that with aluminum that is absolutely not the case. I failed to ask Fluidyne that, but you can bet I will tomorrow.

olddog 06-02-2009 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi (Post 954562)
On this issue of revving the engine, I don't see any noticeable difference when I do that. So while the pulley change may help, I am not counting on it exclusively.

If I get it up to say 100*C and kill it but leave the electric fan running for a couple minutes, the temp gauge climbs on up to 110C. But I can then start it again and immediately the pump exchanges the radiator and block water and it immediately drops like a rock by 10-15 degrees. Then I kill it again, wait with the fan on for a coulpe more minutes, start it again and I can get it from on down to 85C, all in less than 4-5 minutes doing this. To me this suggests that the radiator is capable of cooling, either it doesn't have the volume or the time to do so. EDIT>> or the airflow is still too low.
If reving the engine does not drop the temp from when it was idling, then the problem absolutely is not a lack of water flow, in my opinion. Do not waste time on the pulley changes. You may get into problems at higher rpm.

On another post, I think you compared radiator sizes. If the radiator is of adaquate size for the engine, that is ruled out.

By turning the engine off and letting the fan run, then restarting you simulated what more air flow will do for you.

You also took the engine heat out of the picture. So, either the engine is making too much heat (lean, or timing issue) or there is not enough air flow. I think you proved the timing. If you measure the header temp you should be able to prove that it is not too lean at idle, at which point you will have eliminated everything, but air flow. There were many comments on things like opening the hood to see if it cools down. Have you tried any of these? I recomend you focus on air flow improvenents.

One other nagging thing that most every engine builder comments on from time to time is cylinder wall thinkness. I think it is pretty well documented that thin wall will cause overheating issues. I would think that would be when making power not idling. Maybe someone can comment on this.

767Jockey 06-02-2009 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi (Post 954644)
My problems PALE in comparison to yours. I am sure you'd LOVE to be chasing an overheating problem in your newly completed car. I am feeling for ya.
In my case, misery does NOT love company. I am thoroughly enjoying the fact that your car is up and running. Enjoy it, you worked very hard on it and it looks great.

Steve Gallegos 06-02-2009 07:38 PM
Try the restrictor washer, If your pully is over and water pump to efficient, the water is moving to fast through the raditor. That what was wrong with mine. Put the restrictor in, temp came down.

DanEC 06-02-2009 07:44 PM
if this has already been covered I apologize as I haven't read all 5 or 6 pages of posts. Are you running vacuum advance hooked up to full time (not ported) a vacuum source. A working vacuum advance unit can make a very large difference in coolant temp on a big block Chevy - I've experienced it. I don't know why a Ford should be any difference. The additional timing at idle and cruise will greatly lower coolant temperatures.

elmariachi 06-02-2009 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog (Post 954646)
On another post, I think you compared radiator sizes. If the radiator is of adaquate size for the engine, that is ruled out.
It was merely suggested that the radiator was sufficient based on the fact that other Hurricane guys are running and "managing" big blocks with it. I think a few struggle to keep theirs cool. I don't think we have yet to prove that its anywhere near sufficient. Its only a 2-row, while most others are 3 including the CSX cars. I do plan on rechecking a number of temp points with an IR gun ASAP but at this point, I am arriving at the opinion that the radiator is not sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey (Post 954654)
In my case, misery does NOT love company. I am thoroughly enjoying the fact that your car is up and running. Enjoy it, you worked very hard on it and it looks great.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gallegos (Post 954669)
Try the restrictor washer, If your pully is over and water pump to efficient, the water is moving to fast through the raditor. That what was wrong with mine. Put the restrictor in, temp came down.
I have ordered the restrictor kit and plan to try it before anything drastic like a $500 radiator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanEC (Post 954670)
Are you running vacuum advance hooked up to full time (not ported) a vacuum source.
Mechanical advance.

danc30 06-03-2009 07:52 AM
Elmariachi

PM Sent

razerwire 06-03-2009 08:21 AM
If you talk to fluidyne you could ask them what Finishline Motorsports Las Vegas used in the comp cars and what the specs are. I would call Finishline for you but they are closed. Then you could compare specs to your rad.

elmariachi 06-03-2009 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razerwire (Post 954834)
If you talk to fluidyne you could ask them what Finishline Motorsports Las Vegas used in the comp cars and what the specs are. I would call Finishline for you but they are closed. Then you could compare specs to your rad.
That's model FHP-30-SHELBY, same as discussed above. Its a 3-row versus the PRC 2-row. I am pretty sure I can make it work and use sheet aluminum to enclose the side up front in the nose. Its already setup for the correct driver-in, passenger-out ports and has the air bleed port from the expansion tank. The PRC Hurricane radiator requires a passenger side main hose exit on the expansion tank, reverse of the Fluidyne. This coming after I finally got my expansion tank to stop leaking. :( So I got that going for me.

Restrictors and new IR gun arrive tomorrow, then we'll be doing more testing.

fkemmerer 06-03-2009 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razerwire (Post 954639)
It would seems to me that the water has to stay in the rad for a time so the exchange from air to water can take place. I show size and tilt of rad. in my post so you know it can be cooled. Tilt will effect the transfer of water to air going down the road. Running the water thru the rad. to fast will not give the rad. a chance to exchange heat.

What you say here is true but you need to keep in mind the "normal" RPM range that a typical water pump operates in. This would be from idle (say 900 RPM) up to 6000 RPM. When we speed the water pump at idle, we are moving the flow characteristic of the radiator from a limited flow rate more into the range that would be the case at light throttle/low rpm cruise. I have used "overdrive" water pump pulley's on two motors which were "heat monsters" and they helped in both cases.

- Fred

ERA Chas 06-06-2009 07:27 AM
[quote=Restrictors and new IR gun arrive tomorrow, then we'll be doing more testing.[/QUOTE]

Any news to update us? Very good effort you're putting in and hope for a good solution for you.


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