Overheating Issues, Perplexed

[undy]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

From what I can tell, there are three fans from 1991-1999, the high output Taurus SHO fan, the high output Lincoln fan and the standard V-6 Taurus/Sable fan. You can tell the two high outputs fans from the standard fan as the standard has one corner of the shroud cut at an angle. The other two have the same rectangular shroud, but the SHO fan has small swept blades like a SPAL fan and the Lincoln monster fan has large chopper blades. Do some searching on eBay and you can find Ford and Dorman numbers. I don't know if the aftermarket fans deliver the same cfm so I would be careful there (which is why I bought a used Ford instead.) Guys that are selling these know a lot about them so you can educate yourself pretty well by perusing the auctions. I am also a member of the Pirate 4x4 forum and there are dozens of threads about installing and using these fans there. You have to sign up to search but if you are thinking of doing this, its well worth it. And do a Yahoo search on "Taurus fan install" and you'll see how widely used this fan is.

I did some research on this myself on several 4WD boards along with a muscle car and Fox body forum. It appears that the 90 thru 95 3.8 liter Taurus fan is the one to have. In fact, it looks just like the one you're buying? Doing some checking, the V6 SHOs ran a smaller 16" shrouded fan, the same fan as the other lesser output 3.0s. I believe that's the same fan you'd mentioned with the corner cut off. I guess it's a smaller cube, smaller heat load way of thinking. The 3.4L V8 SHO's fan and the 96 up Taurus/Sable was of a different configuration, not a tidy fan/shroud package and not usable in our application. The Lincoln runs a larger 18" shrouded fan. The larger shroud size and the 6 1/2" stand off distance make it unusable, at least for my application. Geez, that 5500 CFM rating would have been the shiz-nit though..

I went and Epay'd a new Taurus 3.8L unit for 80 bucks. For that money it's worth doing some testing/trimming for adaptability and just to see how much air this puppy'll move. I've got an HVAC flow hood at work we use for TAB evaluations. I might just see ho much air it does actually move.

Dave

[Garage10]

If going with the taurus fan make sure it has three wires indicating a low and high speed setting as well as ground. I believe the 97-98 fans are the higher cfm rated ones.Check my gallery for pics of fan.

[elmariachi]

And if you are so inclined, here is a company that supplies a pre-wired harness/relay kit just for this 2-speed fan: Hollister Road

There's a write-up on their site about the fan install.

Nice wiring schematics at the botton of this page.

[undy]

Thanks El, that relay combo looks like just the ticket. Before I start investing in the controls I need to see if I can make this sucker fit. I took some preliminary measurements before I bought the fan. It may or may not fit behind my radiator. It will, at best, take some creative carving on the shroud to get it in there. My core is only 18" wide and the distance from the radiator to the water pump pulley is only 4" as the crow flies.

Was I right on the SHO fan? Where did you get the info that that fan you posted was from a SHO?

Dave

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by undy

Thanks El, that relay combo looks like just the ticket. Before I start investing in the controls I need to see if I can make this sucker fit. I took some preliminary measurements before I bought the fan. It may or may not fit behind my radiator. It will, at best, take some creative carving on the shroud to get it in there. My core is only 18" wide and the distance from the radiator to the water pump pulley is only 4" as the crow flies. Was I right on the SHO fan? Where did you get the info that that fan you posted was from a SHO?Dave

Same for me, I am going to get the fan and make sure all systems are go before I worry about wiring.

The more I read, the more confused I am getting. The SHO fan is supposedly a 16" swept blade with two speeds and was produced in early to mid 90's. According to an email I received from the Seller, the fan I bought is actually a 17" blade with two speeds from a later model Lincoln Continental/MKVIII. But the pic I have looks just like the SHO fan. He also says that there is another Lincoln fan out there that has 18" chopper blades and requires 6" mounting depth, but it blows a whopping 5500 cfm.

So I am not sure about all these fan models, I am just regurgitating what I am learing through reading. No wonder American auto makers are in the toilet, too many discreet part requirements when one or two fans could have served the model whole lineup for a decade.

Here is a link with some good pics and part #s for Ford/Mercury and Lincoln:

http://www.monsterautoparts.com/MERC...ing_fans-1.htm

[CobraEd]

Sounds like you are well on the way to successful cooling. Now you gotta be sure that your alternator can keep up with the 2,500 amp fan


.

[undy]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Same for me, I am going to get the fan and make sure all systems are go before I worry about wiring.

The more I read, the more confused I am getting. The SHO fan is supposedly a 16" swept blade with two speeds and was produced in early to mid 90's. According to an email I received from the Seller, the fan I bought is actually a 17" blade with two speeds from a later model Lincoln Continental/MKVIII. But the pic I have looks just like the SHO fan. He also says that there is another Lincoln fan out there that has 18" chopper blades and requires 6" mounting depth, but it blows a whopping 5500 cfm.

So I am not sure about all these fan models, I am just regurgitating what I am learing through reading. No wonder American auto makers are in the toilet, too many discreet part requirements when one or two fans could have served the model whole lineup for a decade.

Here is a link with some good pics and part #s for Ford/Mercury and Lincoln:

http://www.monsterautoparts.com/MERC...ing_fans-1.htm

El, .... got my fan today via Epay. It looks just like your posted picture. It's a sweet setup and for 80 bucks brand new what a deal. I'm getting ready to do a 12 volt hookup to check operation and flow. It looks like it can be adapted for my application.

What type of control center are you going to use for yours?

Dave

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by undy

El, .... got my fan today via Epay. It looks just like your posted picture. It's a sweet setup and for 80 bucks brand new what a deal. I'm getting ready to do a 12 volt hookup to check operation and flow. It looks like it can be adapted for my application. What type of control center are you going to use for yours?Dave

Hi Dave. Still waiting on mine but that's okay, its hotter than hell here in Houston and my energy level is looowwww. I haven't really thought out the wiring, though I do think I am going to buy that Hollister relay wiring kit I mentioned earlier. I think I'll hook it up so that the low speed comes on with the 180 elec temp sensor in my radiator hose, and the high speed is dash switchable. So down the road it will either be off because the engine is running cool enough or on low speed, but hi speed is reserved for low speed driving and idling.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Also, I bought this car turn-key minus from a guy that had put 1500 miles on it from new with an all-aluminum 482 KC Pond engine. He says he had zero cooling issues. I am running that same radiator and even using his hoses.

To me, that narrows it down to your engine. What it is in particular, I don't know, but it's not your cooling system. You can improve the cooling system and that may help it compensate but it doesn't address the root of the problem.
I have the same car, same cooling system except I'm running a Windsor motor (I know, big difference) and I can drive my car all day in traffic with 90+ temps. and never go over 185F. The fan will only come on if after a long run, I let it idle for about 5 in the driveway and then the temp. drops right back down.
Like you said, many Hurricane owners run big blocks with no problems. I would be looking for the problem instead of treating the symptoms.

Jim

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jwd

To me, that narrows it down to your engine. Jim

When the dyno shop did the break-in run and dyno pulls, the engine was plumbed with an electric water pump and a controlled/cooled water supply. After they were done on the dyno they changed the oil, bolted on my new Edelbrock waterpump, and plumbed in a heavy duty racing radiator with a large electric fan. We then ran it for 20 minutes checking for leaks and it never went over 180*F. When I got it home and bolted it into the go-kart, I then put 20+ miles on it running around the subdivision before mounting the body and it never got above 180*F. Then I mounted the body and it started idling hot. No way its the engine.

EDIT>> Every engine will run hot and eventually melt down if its not cooled. By laying a second pusher fan in the nose I can hold the temps to 195, and that's still leaving two full corners of the radiator without direct airflow. So I am not sure at that point I am any different than any other properly cooled Cobra: Cooling system is discharging engine heat and keeping the engine cool enough to operate at idle and roadspeed.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

No way its the engine.

Then my question would be "Why did Brad not have the problem you are having and the only thing changed was the motor (to a smaller one with less HP)?" Just doesn't make sense.

Jim

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jwd

Then my question would be "Why did Brad not have the problem you are having and the only thing changed was the motor (to a smaller one with less HP)?" Just doesn't make sense.

Jim

Fair question and I agree, which is why I posted this thread. Maybe his aluminum engine and heads were just within the capabilities of this fan and radiator, coupled with a much less harsh environment in Michigan versus Texas. In other words, maybe the cast iron engine and heads, coupled with the temps here, are a tad too much for the cooling system.

I am not arguing against there being something wrong with the engine, but I have far more data supporting an airflow/cooling system capacity issue than I do an internal engine issue. The engine was properly tested, machined and rebuilt and it performed flawlessly on the dyno. There are no combustion gases in the coolant, no coolant in the oil, I was present when the head gaskets were mounted, so on and so forth. It warms up normally. Oil pressure and temps are good and no matter how hard I run it, it stays cool. I ran the piss out of it yesterday afternoon and it was 95*F here with 50% humidity. It never got over 85*C while moving.

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

When I got it home and bolted it into the go-kart, I then put 20+ miles on it running around the subdivision before mounting the body and it never got above 180*F. Then I mounted the body and it started idling hot. No way its the engine.
.

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I am amazed at how thorough and diligent you have been at trying to solve this problem. I know that this is a crazy idea and involves a lot of work but if you cannot find the problem to your 100% satisfaction, why don't you remove the body and see what happens? I also think the problem may be the engine, not the cooling system. By taking the body off, you can see if it still runs hot once and for all.

Wayne

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

I also think the problem may be the engine, not the cooling system. By taking the body off, you can see if it still runs hot once and for all.Wayne

The car is presently painted Lamborghini Titanium with silver stripes. All along it has been my plan to repaint it to a more original color. That's been a "Fall 2009" event and my preference would be to not pull the body until then. I have a bigger fan and shroud coming and even if all we are doing is masking the problem, I may live with it until the fall so that I only have to remove the body one more time. But let's go down this path for the sake of discussion...

If I pull the body and it still overheats, then what is wrong? What about the engine >>specifically<< could be causing this?

[CobraEd]

Retarded timing and/or lean mixture at idle.


.

[Jerry Clayton]

does your demon carb have the idle eze adjustment feature in the center of the base plate? the mixture screws on just about all demon carbs that i have done anything with usually end up around 1 1/4 turns out---

you seem to be quite attached to the theory that it ran ok on the dyno and before the body was on the car----so what----forget that nd work on what you have now--runs hot---no dyno involved

To borrow some words from one i've never met---if the facts don't support your theory, get a new theory( Al Nunley)

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

does your demon carb have the idle eze adjustment feature in the center of the base plate? the mixture screws on just about all demon carbs that i have done anything with usually end up around 1 1/4 turns out---

And where would you suggest the Idle-Eze be set?

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

you seem to be quite attached to the theory that it ran ok on the dyno and before the body was on the car----so what----forget that nd work on what you have now--runs hot---no dyno involved
To borrow some words from one i've never met---if the facts don't support your theory, get a new theory( Al Nunley)

I am not attached to it as a theory, its the facts. Do you have a recommendation?

[jwd]

I will add one thing about your timing. Now I'll admit I've never even owned a FE motor However, I've built and tuned many SBF, 460's,SBC and BBC some putting out over 600 HP and from where I stand, those timing specs. listed above are way out of line. What I shoot for is around 10 initial with a total of 36-iron heads and 34 for alloy heads all in by 2800RPM. You absolutely MUST have a dist. with vacuum advance that adds 8 dist.(16 crank) degrees and have it hooked up to a constant vacuum source. That will give you a total of 26 at an idle yet still be easy to start. The advantage of this set-up is better throttle response, better gas mileage AND a cooler running engine at all RPM's. I've never seen a motor that didn't run better with vacuum advance.
Jim

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jwd

You absolutely MUST have a dist. with vacuum advance that adds 8 dist.(16 crank) degrees and have it hooked up to a constant vacuum source. That will give you a total of 26 at an idle yet still be easy to start.

I'd like to hear other thoughts on this from the FE crowd. Anyone running this setup?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by jwd

The advantage of this set-up is better throttle response, better gas mileage AND a cooler running engine at all RPM's. I've never seen a motor that didn't run better with vacuum advance.
Jim

And what do you do when your idle vacuum is 7" with a 250+ cam?