A mid engine car is one with the engine between the driver and rear axle. A rear engine car has the motor over or behind the rear axle.

Pretty much every other car in the world has the engine between the front and rear axle :p.

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I'm sorry Bruce, you're the expert......Cobras are a piece of junk, new production car technology rivals that in aerospace and F1 and the bottom line lap times I've mentioned were fabricated as I now know the Holocaust was. I will refrain from basing assessments on facts, I mean hallucinations, in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design

The term "mid-engine" has usually been applied to cars having the engine located between the driver and the rear drive axles. This layout is referred to here as RMR layout. Sports and racing cars typically have this mid-engine layout, as these vehicles' handling characteristics are more important than other features, such as capacity. Additionally the mechanical layout and packaging of a RMR car is substantially different than that of a front engine or rear engine car.

A subset of Front-Rear when the engine is in front of the driver, but fully behind the front axle line, the layout is sometimes called Front Mid engine Rear FMR layout instead of the less-specific term front-engine. In handling and vehicle layout FMR is substantially the same as FR. Some vehicles could be classified as FR or FMR depending on the factory installed engine (I4 vs I6). Historically most classical FR cars such as the Ford Models T and A would qualify as a FMR engine car. Additionally, the difference between FR and FMR may be as little as a few millimeters of engine protrusion in front of the front axle line. Not all manufacturers use the Front-Mid designation.

This is also good info:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Mid-engine

Hi,
I suspect that further investigation will show that the vast majority of front engine cars have the engine overhanging the front axle line. Whereas the Cobra's engine is completely behind the axle line.

Just my 2 pennies worth. :3DSMILE:

Paul

As a matter of interest, how does a Kirkham with ali suspension compare to an original Cobra in terms of geometry?

Paul

Tom: Is the Cobra really considered a mid engined car?????:confused:

That blows me away!

I thought Sal's posted definition of mid engined car is the technically correct definition.

:confused:

what do you suggest as a solution for the aerodynamic lift when asked by a customer ?

Z. Ray

It takes some work. Here is KMP259, you can see Morris has done a fair bit of aerodynamic modification to it. The car is very fast. His car was the best example that I could think of off the top of my head.

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...0/DSC06703.JPG

Last year at RnG this car was outrunning it... still has aero but not as extreme:

http://www.vintage-motorsports.com/a.../aeo.sized.jpg

Yes, quite a difference. And I suppose at the opposite end of the spectrum is the trusty old anteater nose. :JEKYLHYDE

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...eater-nose.jpg

I support the view that, what the Cobra is faster than, doesn't matter a bit. The question should be - "Is the Cobra more fun than modern supercars on the track?" - and here the answer is a not quite resounding YES (mainly because modern supercars are fun on the track too).

I have never driven competitively and am very much a novice at track driving but have had some track time fun in cars ranging from a humble Group N 1300cc Toyota Conquest (The sweetest handling little car I have ever driven that I still often think of very fondly) through to an all out racing Golf Mk1 GTI (loads of fun but limited traction out of corners), a 3.6l Formula Atlantic - so fast and grippy that it wasn't any fun because I felt I didn't have the skill to approach it's limits although I set FTD for all four sessions, a CAV GT40 which to my mind would totally outrun my Cobra and that I thoroughly enjoyed and which was a real eye opener, but never really frightened me despite it's huge speed and grip as it gave plenty of warning (Tyre squeal) when approaching it's limits and finally my Cobra Replica.

The Cobra still frightens me after 20 years of ownership and I still leave the track shacking after each session, but WOOHOO - what fun - and that's what its all about. I hope I never get confident in it because I know that's when it will really bite me, which is another part of the appeal.

Also - of all the above cars the only one that I think I could comfortably beat in my Cobra with it's ordinary street settings and tyres is the 1300 cc Toyota - but it doesn't matter because I've had fun in my Cobra and that's all that counts. And I still get a kick every time I fire it up and take it for a drive.

I'd like to add a comment solely on the topic of aerodynamics. Back when I was earning my degree in aerospace engineering, I learned about the big step forward aircraft design took when they went from bi-planes to single wing planes. The advance was made possible primarily by advances in metallurgy and wing design/construction that allowed a single wing to be as strong as two wings tied together by a network of struts and wires. The new mono-wing aircraft were immediately much faster than the bi-planes primarily because they didn't have all the struts and wires. Wind tunnel tests demonstrated that even something as small as a wire produces significant drag. I think of that whenever I see a car with lots of things protruding from it. KMP259 looks like it does a good job of keeping air from getting under the nose, and the rear wing might do some good at high enough speeds. But I can't help but wonder if all the struts sticking out in the wind offset some of those advantages. It would take a Formula 1 super computer to calculate the wind flow reaching the wing after it swirled over the nose, the windscreen, the roll bar, the head rest and the wing struts.

Sal's definition is the commonly accepted, though technically not encompassing enough definition. For example what if the driver is beside the engine like in Granatelli turbine Indy car? http://rcooperimages.com/html/stp_40_car.html
Clearly this is a mid engine car, and the drivers position has no bearing if the car is mid engine or not.

For the same reason that a Porsche 911 is a rear engine car an Audi is a front engine car. The Audi engine is a north south layout and not a transverse layout, and the engine is entirely in front of the front axle. The Audi transaxles are even used in mid engine kits such as the GT40. BTW Acura uses the same layout on some models. Clearly this is very different engine location than on a Cobra where the engine is entirely behind the front axle. Hence, a Cobra is a mid engine car.

I have a few thousand track miles over the past 10 years. I am a good novice at best, and usually run with our local Porsche Club, who also let other makes run, in different classes. Most often CMP, or "Kershaw" here in Upstate SC. I have run a variety of tires, and have had my car set up with proper gearing and suspension by Dennis Olthoff. In my track class for DE (no passing in turns, that sort of club driving, so it certainly isn't "racing") i think the other drivers are pretty much of similar ability.

On a short 2.3 mile track, part straight twice, and otherwise technical, i have found that the key to going quickly is to maximize one's corner exit speed. So lesser power cars which can maintain a more consistant speed, and get on their "power" sooner get out on the straights with an edge, wich can be hard to make up with sheer power.

I rarely spin, so I am leaving something on the table, as the organizers frown on grass excursions, as they can be dangerous for others. The "lesser" cars in my class are likewise set up for track time, with race tires, often suspension tweaks, and perhaps power upgrades.

I am often finding smaller cars, prepped MINI's, BMW's, older 911's, coming up in my rear view mirror, and must wave them by on the early straight-aways. But i can easily run them down, but since they have caught me, it would be foolish and impolite to pass them, only to have them run up on me in the next corner.

The driver disadvantage i have is mainly because i have to be very judicious and careful with exit throttle, whereas lesser engined cars can put their pedal to the floor at the apex. It is just much harder, even in a wonderfully stable Replica as mine, to avoid too much power, whereas they can use all they have. I can't, until i am pretty well straight. Too risky for me.

The modern track prepped cars, like GT3's, can pull away from me just about everywhere on the track.

If my track class were a race, with only race rules, then what i think would happen is that the lesser cars would gain on me in the corners, and i would run them down at the end of the straight. Who could out brake and turn in better would win. It would make for very interesting racing.

Raw power excess is only part of competion against dissimilar cars. Corner exit speed, often from a lesser power car, is a huge factor in lap times.

I have a real fear factor when i try to push it on a track, i think because my car is so open, and often wonder if closed cars somehow give a sense of safety that lets their drivers just push the corners harder. In the back of my mind is awareness that if i spin, and dig in a wheel and go over, i could be killed. Having a hard roof over ones head might allow more courage than i can muster.

I read some comment recently, that even World Class drivers can't brake each wheel independantly like a good stabilty system can. To think any Cobra, replica or otherwise, could out run something like a Nissan GTR, or Blue Max Vette, or ACR Viper at the 'Ring just isn't realistic.

While i am not the fastest in my car in my class (my son is appreciably faster in his top class than i could ever be), i do note that more track enthusiasts walk over to watch my car on the track than they do for much more expensive, modern cars.

One thing i am proud of is that i am a master at heel and toe braking and downshifting, such that i put no thought into it at all when the hairpin at the end is coming up.

All the best from Upstate South Carolina....

I have had Vettes and Porsches that I have run on and off the track and in my opinion, the biggest difference between a Cobra and today's street car turned weekend racer is the fact that its topless. As Hal suggested, the notion of a rollover is almost guaranteed to get you a ride in either a helicopter or a hearse, or both. I can't say that I was ever really "scared" when running my 911 Turbo hard at Road Atlanta. Looking back I have to believe that was due in part to being strapped into a car with a roof. Having only owned my Cobra for a few hundred miles, I won't say I am scared of it, but I am damn sure humble, and not nearly as anxious to take it to the track. I am an okay driver, but I could see where it would gladly kill me instantly, and I never felt that way in the 911, even when I was going 150 mph. So while newer cars like the Ford GT and others can likely kick my car's a$$ on and off the track all day long, I can't recall having ever driven a car that commands as much respect and careful consideration as the Cobra. But I like that about it.

I agree with this last post and Hal's comments. While not a "racer" I know serious track guys that have made that very observation about an open/no top track car like the Cobra. Steve Sunshine for one actually sold his beautiful CSX4027 which was a dead nuts accurate reproduction of the Shelby #98 car for that very reason and bought a Winston Cup car for his track work instead.

While we can all debate the technical issues of chasis design, wheelbase, track width yaddy yaddy blah blah blah all night long about the Cobra the facts remain established that in its day it was a force to be reckoned with on the FIA race circuit and SCCA winning championships in both and against very competent and formidable competition. No one doubts the race prowess of the Ferraris, Grandsports, Jags that it raced against.

While Cobras in the right hands are still very fast today they are just outclassed by some of the high performance machines of today. Who can really be surprised that modern design and technology can outperform in many respects technology dating back 40+ years? Really. I am sure that my "09 Carrera C4S with PDK trans whose main rival is the Audi R8 with equivilent performance would likely turn a better track time then the Cobra at most tracks no less the FGT.

I agree that no other car still demands respect as overtly as the Cobra does and you always have that sense that true to its name it is like a deadly sinister snake waiting to bite and potentially fatally if mishandled.

Tom: Thanks. So there are front mid engined cars and rear mid engined cars and mid mid engined cars not to be confused with front front engined cars and rear rear engined cars. Got it. Just learned something.

I've done a couple of track days now. One was pretty much all Cobras with a few Mustangs and GT40s. No real surprises the Cobras certainly seemed quick. Many were punted round quicker than the GT40 guys.

The 2nd go on the track was with a real big mix of cars and was a bit of a wake up call. Along the straights the Cobras and a couple of hot Porsche 911s were the quickest but round the tight twisty back section of the track it was the Lotus 7 replicas and new Minis that were quick. It was a bit of a laugh because the guys in their tricked out Minis with big brakes and such were shaking their fist at me as I held them up round the back section. They would get past OK only to be gobbled up and overtaken on the main straight again. I laughed all the way round.

It was this event that prompted me to put a lot of effort into redesigning the suspension and putting together a big brake package. The car has more HP than it needs. Serious performance gains will be in making it easier to drive, pull up and go round corners.

Cheers

Evan,

You have the perfect car now...why not challenge the man now? Lots of Ford GTs do track time.

Here is a challenge...I will PAY for you entry in a local road racing venue and also put $100 on the barrel that you CANNOT beat your 'friend'.

Anyone else interested in seeing this? A 2005 Ford GT versus a clapped out Contemporary Cobra driven by a man in his mid 60s???

I say the old Cranky fart will not only win but beat Evan by a considerable distance.....

ANY TAKERS???????

I am very serious. I send in the registration fee right now.

Back off the gas?

All in good time, my pretty. All in good time.