Car won't run in Az...... - Page 4

blykins · #61 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfordman

I'm not one to ask for advise and then not follow it....and since it was easy and free I backed the timing down to 16-18 BTDC.....although it pains me to say the Chevy guy is right......well, the Chevy guy was right. Problem seems to be gone, took the car out for a run into town to get groceries once it quit raining and I did not notice any stumble or miss at all. If you Phoenix guys ever manage to get a run or gathering together that I can attend, I owe you $5 Jeff. I still would like to do some tuning or changes to the car, I am still not hitting my "power band" until I get up around 5,500-6,000 RPM, which would be fine if I was driving around at 150 mph all the time, just not much punch at low RPM daily driving. At least the car is running better now, and for the time being, it is running. 1st trip so far with the new fan wired up and it hasn't burned out yet.....keep your fingers crossed for me! Thanks for all of the continued help. Mark

A Ford guy told you to do that as well....look up a few posts. ;-)

Did you check total timing?

A 600 sized carb is good for a 351W. The carb doesn't know what vehicle it's on.

If you're in the market to buy a carb, I'd buy a nice one that's really tunable. You'll likely pick up some ponies too.

Car Nut · #62 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfordman

The two carbs I took apart did not look like they had jets in the secondaries, which I thought there would be, just a flat plate bolted to another plate and gasket. The inner plate would not come off without major force, so I left it alone. Since I had an abundance of #61's, and it was a holiday weekend, I decided to drill a couple of them out (not recommended, !!

I guess I misunderstood, sounded like you drilled out the secondary plates. Glad you have it running better. The Chevy guy is usually spot on, so us Ford guys have to put up with him

vettestr · #63 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 11:13 AM

A few more questions on timing. You now have initial timing in the 16* range, do I understand you are running a locked down distributor meaning it does not have a mechanical advance or vac. advance feature? Most normally aspirated engine combinations will definitely benefit from additional mechanical advance and a vac advance sure helps reduce fuel consumption as well.

Initial timing advance in the 14 to 16* ballpark with additional mechanical advance of another 14 to 16* (all in by about 2500 RPM ) that nets around 32 to 35* total timing at say 2700 RPM I feel is good target setting. These numbers are ballpark and need to be tailored to your engine but I will go double or nothing I am damn close. The use of vac advance in addition to these setting will only help mileage and clean her up a little. The engine manifold vac reading at idle and manifold vac reading at low/moderate cruise will determine trip point for the vac. advance function of the distributor. In short as manifold vac drops any advance added is removed so no engine performance is lost.

The efficiency of your engine combination determines amount of timing and the benefits. Mo is better in most cases.

If the engine is running well enough and not hurting its self getting ignition timing close should be a priority over fuel ratios of the carb. They do go hand in hand but setting timing will get you closer to proper carb settings than visa-versa. You will need to still go back and tweak things but in smaller blocks. Jeff C RELAY WIRING IS SPOT ON.

azfordman · #64 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 02:06 PM

The motor has a standard distributor with a vacuum advance. With the cap off I can manually apply vacuum to the hose and it get it to move, so it does work. When I get a chance I will measure manifold pressure under slight throttle, and I will check to see at what RPM the advance kicks in, although if I recall it seems to kick in right away. I will keep you posted.

Dangerous Doug · #65 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 07:09 PM

Next time you're out driving it, bring a DMM. When it dies, check the voltage at the coil. I'll bet you a beer the coil is internally shorted---these only fail when they get hot. If you have a horizontally mounted coil, I'll bet you a six-pack of ice-cold Spaten Optimator that it's the coil.

This has happened to me---twice---on two separate, non-Cobra vehicles.

DD

azfordman · #66 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 11:23 PM

Second night out and the fan is dead again!!! This time the brand new relay is blown out......... I know the car has some wiring issues, but this fan system is wired separate from the cars harness. I have power to the relay, and the switch wires gives me a good ground, but the relay is not sending juice to the fan. The only saving grace is I did not burn out the new fan......yet! So WTF am I doing wrong here???????

xlr8or · #67 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 11:38 PM

Go back and read that Taurus fan upgrade thread. You can get the fan brand new from www.rockauto.com for $90 and the wiring harness from www.thoroco.com for $60 and your cooling and fan issues will be resolved.

I did this on my coupe and it works great. I drove from Phoenix to San Diego last weekend during the hottest part of the day averaging 85 MPH with the A/C running and it was 114 degrees outside. The car ran a steady 205 and even less when i was stuck in line at the border patrol check points.

azfordman · #68 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlr8or

Go back and read that Taurus fan upgrade thread. You can get the fan brand new from www.rockauto.com for $90 and the wiring harness from www.thoroco.com for $60 and your cooling and fan issues will be resolved.

The fan I got actually works pretty good as far as keeping the the motor cool, even at idle in the middle of the day in town temp stays below 90c. I would have no issue buying a wiring harness....if I had to....but it is just a relay and wires....not really rocket science.....sometimes when I get to close to a project I cannot see the obvious, I have to be doing something wrong because there is no reason to keep having these issues with something as simple as an electric fan.

azfordman · #69 (**permalink**) 09-08-2010, 11:58 PM

Here is how I have the new fan wired up......

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfordman

Car Nut · #70 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 07:09 AM

Did the fuse blow or the relay?

Did you use at least a 12 ga wire for the fan power and ground?

Is your control circuit still hot?

Are you sure your ground(s) is good?

azfordman · #71 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Car Nut

Did the fuse blow or the relay?

Did you use at least a 12 ga wire for the fan power and ground?

Is your control circuit still hot?

Are you sure your ground(s) is good?

Fuse is fine
10 ga wire used
Not sure what you mean by control circuit....but, there is power from the + connection to the starter relay....hot at relay & power from the ignition switch +....hot at relay & ground is good at the relay from the switch. No power comes out of the relay to the fan when switch is flipped...... If I put 12v to the fan connection at the relay the fan comes on. Fan is good.

Relay is bad......

I am sure the answer cannot be buy a new relay every other day.......

patrickt · #72 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 08:12 AM

Did you solder all of your connections on the relay? A bad connection will increasee the current and can contribute to a burned up relay.

azfordman · #73 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Did you solder all of your connections on the relay? A bad connection will increasee the current and can contribute to a burned up relay.

No...the relay has spade connections on it. If you tell me I have to solder the connections I will.....I am at a complete loss and I have no idea what else to do, but I find it had to believe that every production vehicle and every hot rod on the road with an electric fan has the spade connections on the relay soldered.....

xlr8or · #74 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 10:06 AM

One of the concerns of with electric fans is the initial draw when they start up. Some will have a momentary draw of up to 60 amps.

vettestr · #75 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 10:12 AM

All good points in the last few posts. I hacked out a response and then lost it going to check another post. #$&(^_* Have you checked or measured what fan is really pulling not to mention the spikes? Gave up and sent you a PM

Car Nut · #76 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfordman

Fuse is fine
10 ga wire used
Not sure what you mean by control circuit....but, there is power from the + connection to the starter relay....hot at relay & power from the ignition switch +....hot at relay & ground is good at the relay from the switch. No power comes out of the relay to the fan when switch is flipped...... If I put 12v to the fan connection at the relay the fan comes on. Fan is good.

Relay is bad......

I am sure the answer cannot be buy a new relay every other day.......

I'm at loss, the only other thing I can think of is low voltage and Ohm's Law. If you have a lower voltage your amperage will go up. 40 amps at 12 volts will equate to 48 amps at 10 volts. However since it did not blow your 40 amp fuse, I suppose it can be you just happened to be lucky enough to get a bad relay.

Its also possible you could be getting a voltage spike in which case you may need to add a diode. http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp

Maybe the easiest thing would be to replace it and see if solves the problem

Maybe add the diode at the same time?

patrickt · #77 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfordman

No...the relay has spade connections on it. If you tell me I have to solder the connections I will.....I am at a complete loss and I have no idea what else to do, but I find it had to believe that every production vehicle and every hot rod on the road with an electric fan has the spade connections on the relay soldered.....

No, spade connections are just fine. It could be a long shot, but is it possible that the thermostatic switch is "jiggle-blinking?" You know, it's coming on and off in rapid succession like a loose wire will sometimes do? The way I would diagnose that obscure possibility is to have a 12v light wired in to the fan circuit and then positioned somewhere on the dash so I could see when the fans are coming on. If I saw the light blinking on and off that would tell me what was going wrong. Other than that, if your connections are good, your voltage is normal, your wire size is correct, your relay is properly sized, and you've gone through a couple to three fans, I can't guess what it could be.

azfordman · #78 (**permalink**) 09-09-2010, 07:32 PM

Took the relay off this afternoon and opened it up....fried big time, even the contacts had been burned off. Called around and found a 70 amp relay at an electronics store. Went down to pick it up, showed the guy the burned relay and told him the issues I had had. He asked the magic question....."Is the relay mounted so that all connections are facing down? See this spot here, it's a water mark and if water gets inside one of these it will burn up real quick!". Some Beach!!!! One of the stops I had made the other night was to get the car washed, nothing had been bolted down since I was still trouble shooting, and the relay sits at the passenger fender right below the hood opening! That had to be the issue! I am such an idiot! Lesson learned though.... I got a new relay and will get it set up tonight, also picked up a diode to install along with it for good measure. Hopefully I won't be bothering anyone with this problem any more.....All of the help is greatly appreciated. Mark