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| vettestr |
01-05-2009 08:38 AM |
crankcase oil analysis
I am a fan of having the engine oil checked once a year or so. The testing tells you everything from your oils level of zinc and the additives needed for cam/lifter life to its amount of wear metals present. Potential problems with coolant or high amounts of gas in your oil also give you a heads up. The numbers can even tell you if the oil is being changed too often or it is not showing any sign of breaking down or contaminates yet. The lubes in the tranny or rear diff can also be analyzed.
The testing begins with a sample of about 3 oz. and many labs will provide a free container and packaging needed. The basic test runs about $20 bucks and options can add another 10 bucks for 30 bucks all in or less. I am going to talk to a local company to see if they will discount x amount of kits for our local gang. If I get anywhere I will let the gang know. Here is 1 of many companies available on the net. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/what_..._analysis.html
and a sample report page = http://www.blackstone-labs.com/eng_balloon_report_.html |
| patrickt |
01-05-2009 11:26 AM |
... and for fun you can send the identical oil to different labs and see the variations between them. They are not consistent... not by a long shot.:cool:
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| vettestr |
01-05-2009 01:13 PM |
Patrick,
I admit I have never sent the samples to different labs but have used the same labs as some pretty heavy hitters like Cummings and Detroit and are ISO cert'd. Tell me more, why the skepticism, what ya know?
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| patrickt |
01-05-2009 01:27 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by vettestr
(Post 910495)
Patrick,
I admit I have never sent the samples to different labs but have used the same labs as some pretty heavy hitters like Cummings and Detroit and are ISO cert'd. Tell me more, why the skepticism, what ya know?
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There was a long thread a year or two ago on the pelicanparts forum dealing with the inconsistencies not only between the oil labs (with the same sample of oil) but even when you sent the same sample to the same lab on different occasions. I experienced it myself when I was experimenting with the addition of the GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube (not EOS) to adjust the ZDDP levels without getting the detergent level too high. I carefully measured and added some in, sent the sample out, it came back with the Zinc & Phos numbers, I then added another bottle, drove it a bit, sent the sample in, and the ZDDP was almost half as much as it was on the first test! You can also compare the Virgin Oil numbers from Blackstone, Stavely, Butler, et. al., for the identical oil and there can be a significant difference. Now, all that being said, I still send my oil out to have it analyzed, but I don't take the reports as gospel....;) |
| vettestr |
01-05-2009 01:47 PM |
Patrick quote "Now, all that being said, I still send my oil out to have it analyzed, but I don't take the reports as gospel...."
I got ya Patrick. All in all, a report on the same sample should be pretty basic. If your job is reading a mass spec report it would seem you would get good at it sooner or later. THANKS Jeff C
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| patrickt |
01-05-2009 02:11 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by vettestr
(Post 910500)
If your job is reading a mass spec report it would seem you would get good at it sooner or later.
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Only if the data is accurate to begin with. Charles Navarro used to have a spreadsheet on his LN Engineering site that listed a hundred or so of the more common oils along with the Zinc, Phos, Boron, Moly, and detergent values. These values were derived from various oil labs, all of whom you would recognize. Several of the oil manufacturers complained (Brad Penn being one) that the numbers were just flat out wrong. As I recall, Charles did his best to either correct, or to at least annotate, their concerns. I further recall that Charles penned more than a few forum messages that addressed his frustration with the accuracy of oil labs. I believe he now offers that service himself. Suffice to say that I would not pull my bearings out based on one lab report that spotted some errant metal. But I might if based on two, especially if they were from different labs....;) |
| STCinc |
01-05-2009 03:17 PM |
I use Blackstone for each car (with a base line when new) - I'm only looking to make sure the numbers are close to the last sample.. IE: looking to be proactive in looking for problems.
So, I'm up to 171K on my 99 Nissan Altima - 65K on my 2000 F350 and 67K on my 04 Crown Vic (not including my Kubota, ATV, Cobra and Company cars).
Blackstone is only $22 per sample and quick with the reports. Unless someone can offer a better suggestion for oil samples, I'll stay with Blackstone!
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| olddog |
01-05-2009 06:02 PM |
I must point out that depending on what you are looking for in the oil, the way you take the sample could add a lot a variability. Leave oil set and the heavy stuff sinks and the light stuff goes to the top. It is very possible that the lab correctly measured two samples from the same oil with different levels of what ever, due to segrigation.
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| patrickt |
01-05-2009 06:12 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog
(Post 910550)
I must point out that depending on what you are looking for in the oil, the way you take the sample could add a lot a variability. Leave oil set and the heavy stuff sinks and the light stuff goes to the top. It is very possible that the lab correctly measured two samples from the same oil with different levels of what ever, due to segrigation.
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Oil sample taken in the identical fashion -- after a drive, via suction through the dipstick hole, tube placed the same distance down so that the sample came from the middle of the oil pan (not the top of the pan, not the bottom of the pan). :cool:
My Zinc and Phos. numbers varied widely; so widely that I wondered whether the ZDDP would "pool in clumps" and thus miss the sample pickup but nonetheless bond to the iron and steel as it went through the system. I don't know. I gave up on playing that game and instead use Brad Penn with a bottle and a half of EOS. BTW, the virgin sample of the BP that I sent in came back with low Zinc and Phos. numbers as well, but some other forums had users that had the identical experience with that particular lab. IOW, that lab tended to low-ball the ZDDP numbers. |
| vettestr |
01-06-2009 10:12 AM |
Maybe ignorance is bliss but I want to hold the reports to a higher value. I have used a couple of labs over the years but have always found consecutive reports within expected values. Oil analysis is a tool that adds light to an otherwise dark area and I find it useful as do many. I thought they were accredited by a few agencies and after checking I see they are or at least the ones I used.
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| patrickt |
01-06-2009 10:17 AM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by vettestr
(Post 910769)
I thought they were accredited by a few agencies and after checking I see they are or at least the ones I used.
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:LOL::LOL::LOL: That "accreditation" involves payment of a membership fee -- nothing more (what, you think somebody actually flies out and checks the labs in person?:rolleyes:). But like I said, I send my oil off to have it analyzed, and have done so for years. |
| Danr55 |
01-06-2009 01:56 PM |
Patrickt, I don't mean to be contrary, but I have a friend who makes a very good living flying around and surveying different labs for different functions. Among them being spectrographic analysis and chemical analysis. He audits both function and procedural processes for existance of procedures, compliance to standards, and record keeping among other things. I know this man because I work for a major aerospace corporation and they would not (read that as could not by contract) do business with these labs if they were not certified. I can't speak to the specific groups that vettstr is familiar with, but to say that certification is nothing more than paying a fee is a bit simplistic.
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| patrickt |
01-06-2009 01:58 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danr55
(Post 910835)
...but to say that certification is nothing more than paying a fee is a bit simplistic.
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You are absolutely right. |
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