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-   -   1966 ford 427 le mans race engine simulation dyno numbers (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/fe-talk/101364-1966-ford-427-le-mans-race-engine-simulation-dyno-numbers.html)

Ibr8k4vetts 12-08-2009 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner (Post 1008090)
Needs mufflers, air cleaner, water pump and alternator to be an apples-to-apples sim. Fan, too, for 60s tech. (When did electric fans become common?)
I believe the originals had e-fans, But I could be wrong!:p

Gunner 12-08-2009 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vector1 (Post 1008057)
rocker arm ratio 1.76
Just noticed this. Isn't 1.73 standard, even on the Le Mans engines?

Woodz428 12-09-2009 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner (Post 1008150)
Just noticed this. Isn't 1.73 standard, even on the Le Mans engines?
Adjustables are 1.76 and non-adjustables are the 1.73. All the solid lifter engines had the 1.76 rockers.

lovehamr 12-09-2009 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibr8k4vetts (Post 1008140)
I believe the originals had e-fans, But I could be wrong!:p
Yup, not to much room for a WP mounted fan on a GT40.:D

dcdoug 12-09-2009 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi (Post 1008103)
Do you recall what the lift was on that B cam?
Wow, you guys went to town on this thread last night. :)

The lift on my B cam is .526.

EDIT: I can get the rest of the specs tonight if you are interested (don't remember and they are at home). It was a Holman Moody custom grind B cam that my builder had done, so maybe that means it is a bit better on the street that a traditional B cam?

patrickt 12-09-2009 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdoug (Post 1008219)
It was a Holman Moody custom grind B cam that my builder had done, so maybe that means it is a bit better on the street that a traditional B cam?
There is debate as to whether there was indeed two "flavors" of the "B" cam. Durations for both flavors were 324 seat-to-seat and 245 at .050 with the lift being .525 which comes out to about .500 after you take off your lash. The debate was whether the LSA was the same between the two flavors. Some reports say that the Ford "B" cam was 112 degrees lobe separation, while the Holman Moody "B" cam was 106 degrees. Other reports say that the Ford "B" cam was also 106 and that there are just mistakes in the literature that have been passed down over the years.

DMXF 12-09-2009 08:26 AM
B Cam
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt (Post 1008222)
There is debate as to whether there was indeed two "flavors" of the "B" cam. Durations for both flavors were 324 seat-to-seat and 245 at .050 with the lift being .525 which comes out to about .500 after you take off your lash. The debate was whether the LSA was the same between the two flavors. Some reports say that the Ford "B" cam was 112 degrees lobe separation, while the Holman Moody "B" cam was 106 degrees. Other reports say that the Ford "B" cam was also 106 and that there are just mistakes in the literature that have been passed down over the years.
I have an original Ford B cam with the C4-B part number stamped right in the end and had it tested years ago. Separation is at the lower end of the values you mention, something like 106.

dcdoug 12-10-2009 08:10 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt (Post 1008222)
Some reports say that the Ford "B" cam was 112 degrees lobe separation, while the Holman Moody "B" cam was 106 degrees. Other reports say that the Ford "B" cam was also 106 and that there are just mistakes in the literature that have been passed down over the years.
My lobe separation is definitely 106. Here's the cam card (if that's at all helpful - which it probably isn't).

patrickt 12-10-2009 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdoug (Post 1008580)
My lobe separation is definitely 106. Here's the cam card (if that's at all helpful - which it probably isn't).
Oh, I believe you. Larry at HM though swears that there were 112 degree LSA "B" cams coming out of Ford -- and he's been grinding cams there since WWII so I'm not about to contradict him. But there are definitely Ford B cams that have 106 degree LSA -- there's no doubt about that. HM did make cams for Ford as well, so it might as simple as "HM ground B cams were at at 106 and when Ford ground B cams they were at 112 and some of the Ford stamped cams were really from HM." I will add that I have never heard of an HM B cam having a 112 LSA. Never.

dcdoug 12-10-2009 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt (Post 1008584)
Oh, I believe you. Larry at HM though swears that there were 112 degree LSA "B" cams coming out of Ford -- and he's been grinding cams there since WWII so I'm not about to contradict him.
Interesting, I wonder if he ground my cam? My engine builder (who is in his 60s), said he had a friend at HM who is "even older than he is" grind my cam. Sounds like the same guy.

patrickt 12-10-2009 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdoug (Post 1008588)
Interesting, I wonder if he ground my cam? My engine builder (who is in his 60s), said he had a friend at HM who is "even older than he is" grind my cam. Sounds like the same guy.
Probably. I think Larry is in his late 70's.

vector1 12-10-2009 03:56 PM
looking at the cam that was used in the program and what you guys are discussing, it sounds as if the cam used in the program is not correct.

if someone wants to post the cam specs you guys are discussing i'll put them in and see what happens, but it will not probably change the numbers much, just the rpm at where they happen.

optimizing the current setup, centerlines at 104/100 for a lsa of 102, dur. 248/242, gross valve lift .706/.670. that is a pretty agressive solid lifter and don't know if it could be done, looks like roller territory.

549 tq @ 5000/566 hp @ 6000,

aggressive solid roller--248/248 .722/.722 lsa 102

556 tq @ 5000/574 hp @ 6000

with this roller cam and typical street single plane intake

566 tq @ 5000/603 hp @ 6000

the two above examples are with 10" of idle vacuum, all examples are with production water pump only, normal windage, and production design pistons and bearings.

patrickt 12-10-2009 04:03 PM
My "K" cam, and Doug's "B" cam are very similar. His cam is essentially the "big brother" to my cam. Here are the specs:

K cam
intake/exhaust duration at .050: 245/245
intake/exhaust duration seat to seat: 324/324
Lobe Separation Angle: 114
Maximum Lift at the Valve: .525 less lash of .025 for an effective .500


B cam
intake/exhaust duration at .050: 245/245
intake/exhaust duration seat to seat: 324/324
Lobe Separation Angle: 106
Maximum Lift at the Valve: .525 less lash of .025 for an effective .500

vector1 12-10-2009 06:03 PM
need the centerline of either the intake or exhaust, otherwise i'm just guessing on where to clock the cam.

patrickt 12-10-2009 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vector1 (Post 1008774)
need the centerline of either the intake or exhaust, otherwise i'm just guessing on where to clock the cam.
Try giving the K cam four degrees of advance making the ICL 110 and the ECL 118. For the B cam, try two degrees of advance making the ICL 104 and the ECL 108.

elmariachi 12-10-2009 06:53 PM
If you'd be so inclined, here is my Comp 294S, installed with 5* advance:

Adv Duration 294 int./294 exh.
@ 050 inch Lift 248 int./248 exh.
Lash 0.022 in.
.605 lift
Lobe center angle 110
Lobe separation 106

vector1 12-10-2009 07:06 PM
b cam at 2 deg. advance--

517 tq @ 4500/514 hp @ 5500, avg tq 456, avg hp 370,


b cam optimized for max avg hp at 0 deg. advance--

518 tq @ 5000/520 hp @ 6000, avg tq 455, avg hp 372

both above with 12" idle vacuum

k cam at 4 deg. advance--

508 tq @ 4500/512 hp @ 6000, avg tq 455, avg hp 372

k cam optimized for max avg hp at 6 deg. advance--

512 tq @ 4500/517 hp @ 6000, avg tq 456, avg hp 372

both above with 16" idle vacuum

the choice to optimize cams is between max avg tq, max avg hp, max tq, and max hp, which moves the numbers around slightly. max avg tq and max avg hp being similiar.

also using 12.5-1 compression

patrickt 12-10-2009 07:11 PM
That's interesting. BTW, elM's Comp Cam has the advertised 294 duration at .006 at the lobe, it's not seat to seat. When you tell it to run mufflers that are not restrictive, what does that do to the HP numbers?

elmariachi 12-10-2009 07:13 PM
Patrick, how does that compare with "reality?"

patrickt 12-10-2009 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi (Post 1008793)
Patrick, how does that compare with "reality?"
I think it's a little bit high, but not terribly so.


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