Look at the polls. A large majority do not want this. As far as the "right to regulate commerce" that's what the liberals have been pointing to in the constitution, but I have heard many constitutional lawyers state that this does not apply.

BTW, "right wingers" have been too "moderate". It is time for a backlash from the majority (conservatives) against the minority (liberals).

Here is an article written by a judge on the issue. I know you will dismiss it because it's from Fox, but the judge does not like either the democrats or republicans much. There will be challenges, count on it.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk7zusD...onstitutional/

Fat Lady is Going Back to Bed.
 

This will not be good for the Dems in Congress who put their necks on the line.
Looks like the health care is being put off till Feb.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/12/2...ntil-february/

Nothing like hurry up and wait.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say a "large majority". When you break that down you got some folks opposed because the bill doesn't go far enough, for instance. Not everyone opposed is opposed to health care reform or even this bill, but to PARTS and PIECES of the bill. It remains a work in progess. At any rate, 52% is a pretty slim "majority" no matter how you count it.

The Judge has an opinion, lot's of people do, like I said, I think it will pass the legal hurdles if and when it ever comes to fruition. Based on Tom's latest post, looks like we have a couple of months to chew it over. :)

Here's a major, as in VAST, problem with the author of the article SPO1715 posted the link to. The author states:

The judge is anything but a hard right wing nut. He opposes anything he feels is against the constitution. He opposed the Patriot Act which you liberals loved to bash Bush about. As far as poll numbers, I have seen most in the mid to high 30% range supporting it. That is a small percentage of Americans IMO.

Most poll's are currently running around 50%, but it really don't mean squat. The bill will eventually pass anyway. It's just a matter of what it looks like when it does.

The Judge is a nut case, see his quote I posted above. :) I would fully expect someone HERE to say that, I'd chuckle and move on. But when a "sort of" respectable author says it in an Op Ed piece, you have to take what he says more seriously. So, seriously, I don't believe he has a leg to stand on with that statement.

Sorry it was unclear. I know it's shocking. My share of health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as my share of taxes needed to run the entire rest of the country.

This is according to my monthly with-holding statements and known insurance costs.

Lest you immediately surmise I am not paying my fair share of with-holding taxes, and the wealthy are overtaxed, I will remind you that workers logically generate all the wealth and therefore all the taxes. Fair share example: Warren Buffett openly admits that his secretary pays more taxes than he does.

I live in a northern state as well and it is not uncommon for folks to cross the border to the nearest good medical center in a larger city or go to Canada for "dangerous" cheap prescription drugs. Or it wasn't uncommon before insane new border papers were required, anyway. Additional paperwork for general border crossings is about as useless as additional paperwork for gun ownership. Doesn't solve much.

Alternatively, my Dad passed away due to delayed/insufficient care in the wonderful US local system.

I imagine Wayne Maybury and others are worried Canada might lose their system if the US caves in to the huge healthcare juggernaut scam we have here.

I see you worked in health-care PDUB. I imagine you didn't get much of the money. People that work rarely do. You might reconsider which tree to bark up.

Wes

***

On another tack, I don't think this whole Obama health care thing is worth a hoot. It's already too watered down and will never match Canada or other modern countries. It isn't so much that just politicians are for sale, but the gullible public can be cheaply bought for the most outrageous lies, like shorting seniors in Medicare etc.

After yet another propoganda youtube video, I sent the following email to a co-worker buddy recently:

Jeepers. I don't know where these guys come up with this stuff. But I have a pretty good idea. This congressman could be a victim of the vast "corporate Wall street" propoganda like so many are, or he could just be a knowing shill for the healthcare scam industry. Most of what he said just isn't true. I suppose it's meant to scare people. And, carefully choreographed, it'll probably work, unfortunately. Good grief.

A few things to keep in mind and pass on. The ridiculous amount the company pays for your and my health benefits, plus the $170 a month I/we pay, MEETS OR EXCEEDS the entire amount of my/your Federal With-holding per month. The Fed with-holding RUNS AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. Where on earth does the huge "health" sum go, anyway? Well a large part of it probably goes to spread anti-reform lies. So in effect I/we are paying for our own dis-information campaign. Considering the profits, it's no wonder anti-reform lies and dis-information campaigns are so well funded. Quite logical, really.

Think about this too: Who would you rather have between you and your doctor; a privatized corporate insurance guy; or a lowly paid government guy? Keep in mind the government guy works for you; and the private guy works for his stockholders (quite wealthy stockholders apparently) and himself. If you want neither, the government guy will step aside, he works for you. Again, quite logical.

Health-care can be as economical as police-care, fire-care, road-care or military-care. Can you imagine what these would cost if privatized. I shudder to think. There was never anything wrong with socialism mixed with reasonable capitalism. Dang McCarthyists. Socialism actually defines Democracy, where everybody owns and controls a part. The opposite is zero government interference. It's called Anarchy. Russia is NOT socialist and never was; Russia is one party tyranny. Logic.

Where does the rest of our costly insurance benefit go? Well probably to pay board members and executive corporate officers everywhere. Guess who all belongs to that top one percent, owns half of everything and scratches each others back. When I try to retire, I'll have to come up with the money so that these (blank) may keep living as they have become accustomed. Half of everything I do. You too. Unless we change it... Sheesh. I know I speaking to the choir here. Feel free to pass it on. ;)

(email video)

Wes

...

***
That's the way it started. Investors bought the first boat and oars. Investors or the idea isn't all bad. Guess whose been buying the boats since the first one.

Also, I agree to some extent with the loose cannon judge from Fox:
We do not have two political parties in this country. We have one party; called the Big Government Party. The Republican wing likes deficits, war, and assaults on civil liberties. The Democratic wing likes wealth transfer, taxes, and assaults on commercial liberties. Both parties like power; and neither is interested in your freedoms.

To merrily carry the sedition on, I would suggest that the Big Government would be fine if run by ordinary folks. However, it is apparently run by wealthy special interests that own both parties, probably a gross understatement.

Wes

...

I tend to agree more with what that judge said than anything the politicians said except that they ignore the Constitution. As for a majority, that is what our voting system is based on and the majority can be 51% vrs 49%, the 51% should win. The Govt. hasn't represented the people for years, just themselves and their friends. Strange how all the people are supposed to follow those idiots like lambs and we have to obey the law but they exempt themselves from any law.

Ron

I have not seen ant polls showing 50% supporting this bill, as a matter of fact a poll I saw last night showed 60% opposing it. Think what you want about the judge, but he is an expert on the constitution. For a daily Kos type liberal like yourself though, you will resort to ridicule. That's the MO for you guys.

Unbelievable, I guess we need to post the Judges comment one more time. Maybe we need a poll that answers the question: Could this man be an "expert"?

And you consider this whacko nut case an EXPERT??? :) :) :)

Ya see my signature line below? That sum's up the problem we have here...

If you like Poll numbers, and I think they are largely irrelevant myself unless an election is VERY near, here's one you might find interesting:

From the nonpartisan Robert Wood Johnson Foundation:
I've said it before. MOST of the polls concerning Health Care ask the classic stupid quesiton. "Do you support it, Yes or No." Support WHAT? Heck even Congress doesn't know yet WHAT the final bill will look like, what it will include. It's still a work in progress. Many folks say "No" because the bill doesn't go far enough! They WANT a public option, they want something different with the abortion part, they want some item changed here or there. This is fundamentally why a "simple" Yes or No answer in a poll is ridiculous.

The Robert Woods foundation came a little close to getting a true feeling about what the American people think. But still, it's just another poll, can't take it to seriously.

Ridicule? HA! I aint got nothing on the conservative's around here. Many of whom have taken "ridicule" of anyone who leans left to the highest possible "expert" level.

From the New York Times, a similiar poll finding as the Robert Wood Johnson poll:

Support for Health Care reform is wide spread, I would even dare to say, "vast". :)

Mission statement from the RWF website:

"The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation seeks to improve the health and health care of all Americans. Our efforts focus on improving both the health of everyone in America and their health care—how it's delivered, how it's paid for, and how well it does for patients and their families."


Now who could possibly be more biased than they are? Ya think they're going to say people don't want what we're selling?
Agreeing that some reform in health care is necessary should be nearly unanimous. But that is in fixing the few problems in the best health care system on the planet. Fixing with logic, reason, and results orientated. NOT scrapping an excellent system so the worst dregs of society can have insurance they can't pay for, and putting everyone's health under Government control. Our HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAS one MAJOR PROBLEM, COST. Does it take a year of BS and 4000 pages to adress cost? NO! Its all about control, NOT fixing anything!

I know that the final version of this so called health reform bill isn't in yet, but go read the darn thing. I haven't begin to read the whole 2,000+ pages, but so far what I have read is ridiculous. It is the biggest PORK PACKAGE in history. Anything in it that would help with health reform is there by accident. It is all about money and what those crooks can get out of it, not about helping people. Also the Constitution, which ever our beloved leaders admit they ignore, says the Govt. is OF the people, FOR the people, and BY the people. But they do not have the right by the Constitution to force anyone to buy health insurance, green cars, or anything else. And so far as reading the bill, most of them freely admit they haven't read it. And it sure as the devil will not lower health costs, just make getting anything done more expensive and harder.

The health system does need some work, but this monstrosity is not what it needs.

Ron

Interesting that the New York Times poll BACKED UP the Robert Woods poll. I don't know, maybe the Times are hard left leaning as well? There is no question you could find other polls with the same results as the Times and the Robert poll.

You simply can't deny that MOST Americans, by far, support some kind of Health Care reform. Unless your swimming in the De-Nile "ocean". :)

Now Ron makes a valid point:
Well maybe, maybe not, but at least we are doing "something". Another Times poll asked the question (paraphrased here): "Who is better suited to develop Health Care Reform. Republicans or Democrats?" Over whelming response was Democrats. In fact one of FOUR Republicans answered Democrats! You guys like Polls? On the internet you can find plenty of them to support your position, yea or nea. :)

And yes, the Government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce clause. Now here's the kicker to that clause. IF you can't afford it there are provisions to address that. So it's not a total "force" aspect. It will survive a legal challenge. Don't pay your taxes? Go to jail. CAN'T pay your taxes? The Gov will work something out.

Are you claiming that you don't know that the New York Times is a branch office of Obum's White House.

And I too have said some fixes are needed, FIXES, not demolition and rebuilding without any REAL knowledge of how to or what it will cost.
Obama and the Democrats all lied when they tried to portray our health care TREATMENT as substandard.
Then they all lied when the tried to make Doctors and Hospitals the villians, saying they were cheating us.
Then they lied about 45, 46, or 47 million having NO ACCESS to health care.
Then they all lied about outrageous policies and procedures and profits of insurance companies, All of which the politicians APPROVED and regulate. But insurance companies stuck as an appropriate villain, helped by completely biased unquestioning media like the NYT and NBC, CBS, ABC, And CNN.
So now they have passed a Senate health INSURANCE bill, NOT HEALTH CARE, claiming all the problems not solved by 100 years of very close insurance regulation , will be solved by even more regulation by the same politicians. I am embarrassed by the national stupidity.

DE-NIAL on a grandeous scale!

Million of Americans have no health insurance, they will die earlier than those who do. Health care for them is sub-standard, they will get only very basic needs meet as they near their death. Insurance policies are outrageous! That is why they are in the top 35 profit makers in the Fortune 500 list. ABOVE them are doctors and associated health care providers.

I am embarrassed by the national conservatives.

Ernie, let's clarify--I believe there are around 50 industries included in the survey to which you referred (not 500).

In a Fortune ranking I saw, the health insurance industry was ranked as 38th most profitable (out of 51 industries; not 38th out of 500 industries).:JEKYLHYDE

Let's remind everybody of YOUR recent post.:rolleyes:

Stentor, when it comes to OPINION, hmmm, I tend to vary, still looking for the right data on some issues. Some posts are as much a question as a statement. Because you see, I'm here to learn, not preach.

When it comes to FACTS, that's a different story! Now to clairify your ranking on the most profitable industries, the THE FORTUNE 500, we find Life and Health Care Insurance at NUMBER NINE! Among that group we find AFLAC at #3, by the way. Now further down the chart we find "Managed Care", they come in at #28.

So your right, my listing at #35 was incorrect, thanks for pointing out it's really NUMBER NINE! TOP TEN baby, TOP TEN!

WHEN are you going to address the simple FACT that insurance company rates and profits are and have been 100% CONTROLLED,REGULATED, AND APPROVED, by politicians of both parties.

And PROFIT is one of the best words in our language, without profit and the desire for profit, we would not exist.
And if the liberal dreamers get their way, we won't exist.

When are you going to wake up and recognize the insurance lobby drives the rules? :)
It's about time our Government said "ENOUGH" and is looking to fix the problem!

I don't have a problem if their #1 in profits, as long as folks can get access to decent medical care. Currently, to many are excluded under rules lobbied for by the insurance groups.