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Wayne Maybury 02-15-2010 03:31 PM
I was going to ask how this got onto conservatives versus liberals but I will keep out of that.

One of the biggest problems the younger members of our society face is recognizing that there are consequences to their actions. It appears that a high percentage of the youth in North America seem to completely disregard this fact. They seem to think that they can do whatever they want and there will never be any consequences.

Wayne

VRM 02-15-2010 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZOR (Post 1029022)
VRM,Who said anything abstinence? Once again the people are not smart enough to handle the job so let the government take over the responsibility of the individual.
So leave it to a liberal to once again choose European ways and values over the American way and values.:CRY:
Razor,
The report TB talks about mentioned abstinence-only education compared to abstinence taught with contraception methods, STD dangers, and how all of it works.
You may be smart enough to educate your kids, but obviously the numbers indicate that a lot of people are not. How do we fix that problem? The conservative method seems to be to pretend that it does not exist.

European engineers invented the internal combustion engine - does that mean you don't use them because they were not invented here?:rolleyes:
I prefer to think that one of the reasons this country does so well is that we can recognise and utilise all the best stuff from whatever source. Other countries are having better results that we are, so learning from their methods would be in our best interests.

Steve

Tommy 02-15-2010 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury (Post 1029052)
One of the biggest problems the younger members of our society face is recognizing that there are consequences to their actions. It appears that a high percentage of the youth in North America seem to completely disregard this fact. They seem to think that they can do whatever they want and there will never be any consequences.

Wayne
Wayne,

I too was very frustrated by the slow pace at which my son learned to consider consequences, until I read the results of research into development of the human brain. It seems that the ability to weigh consequences is one of the last skills developed by most humans, and many of them do not reach that level until their mid 20s. Of course we've all seen examples of people who never developed that ability.

TButtrick 02-15-2010 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRM (Post 1029045)
You are kidding, right? What you posted was an editorial NOT the actual report. The actual report is called 'Stand and Deliver'. Again, give me the link of the report that you read so I can see if it is the same one that I am referring to.

The editorial you posted made all kinds of incorrect conclusions and completely bogus statements because they do not seem to have understood the actual report. It does not seem that you have understood it either. Go look at page 10 and the side note called 'Defining adolescence', and then go back and re-read the entire report - all 44 pages - and then tell me what page the part about teaching 10 year olds about the pleasures of sex shows up on.

You were basing your argument on someones incorrect opinion about what the report said, rather than the report itself. If you consider that a technicality...:rolleyes:

Steve
I suspect the editorial I posted (one of many on the same subject drawing the same conclusion) made the conclusion from the statement on page 28.

Currently, many religious teachings deny the pleasurable and positive aspects of sex and limited guidelines for sexual education often focus on abstinence before marriage (although evidence shows this strategy has been ineffective in many settings). The reality is, young people are sexual beings and many of them are religious as well. There is a need for pragmatism, to address life as it is and not as it might be in an ideal world.

Whereas the IPPF repeatedly defines "young people" as ages 10-24. page 10 per your earlier sidebar reference.

I read that as the IPPF being critical and NOT SUPPORTING of religous teachings that "deny the pleasurable and positive aspects of sex" and continuing in the next sentence by defining the group of people who are being denied as "young people" (ages10-24). It infers that "young people" (ages10-24) are sexual beings and that the topic of sexual pleasures is within the realm of their education. It starts at home is my argument and it starts when I say it starts.

VRM 02-15-2010 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TButtrick (Post 1029079)
I suspect the editorial I posted (one of many on the same subject drawing the same conclusion) made the conclusion from the statement on page 28.

Currently, many religious teachings deny the pleasurable and positive aspects of sex and limited guidelines for sexual education often focus on abstinence before marriage (although evidence shows this strategy has been ineffective in many settings). The reality is, young people are sexual beings and many of them are religious as well. There is a need for pragmatism, to address life as it is and not as it might be in an ideal world.

Whereas the IPPF repeatedly defines "young people" as ages 10-24. page 10 per your earlier sidebar reference.

I read that as the IPPF being critical and NOT SUPPORTING of religous teachings that "deny the pleasurable and positive aspects of sex" and continuing in the next sentence by defining the group of people who are being denied as "young people" (ages10-24). It infers that "young people" (ages10-24) are sexual beings and that the topic of sexual pleasures is within the realm of their education. It starts at home is my argument and it starts when I say it starts.
The bottom of that sidebar says:
'Policies and programmes for young people should focus
not so much on age, but on the specific developmental
needs and rights of individuals as they transition from
childhood to adulthood.'

Your inference is completely invented. They do not define any specific ages for any educational programme.

RAZOR 02-16-2010 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRM (Post 1029073)
Razor,
The report TB talks about mentioned abstinence-only education compared to abstinence taught with contraception methods, STD dangers, and how all of it works.
You may be smart enough to educate your kids, but obviously the numbers indicate that a lot of people are not. How do we fix that problem? The conservative method seems to be to pretend that it does not exist.

European engineers invented the internal combustion engine - does that mean you don't use them because they were not invented here?:rolleyes:
I prefer to think that one of the reasons this country does so well is that we can recognise and utilise all the best stuff from whatever source. Other countries are having better results that we are, so learning from their methods would be in our best interests.

Steve
"Pretend it doesn't exist" this seems to be the misdirection of the left on a number of issues. The left makes this accusation on any issue when the conservative doesn't want government involvement, so with the worldview of the left if we don't want the government involved it must be that we are in a state of ignorance or denial.
I have no objection to learning better methods no matter the country of origin, I do have a problem adopting a value system that replacez ours. The left lovez European valuez, I agree with Tocqueville, and believe in American Exceptionalizm, the Left for whatever reazon doezn't share that belief%/

VRM 02-16-2010 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZOR (Post 1029283)
"Pretend it doesn't exist" this seems to be the misdirection of the left on a number of issues. The left makes this accusation on any issue when the conservative doesn't want government involvement, so with the worldview of the left if we don't want the government involved it must be that we are in a state of ignorance or denial.
I have no objection to learning better methods no matter the country of origin, I do have a problem adopting a value system that replacez ours. The left lovez European valuez, I agree with Tocqueville, and believe in American Exceptionalizm, the Left for whatever reazon doezn't share that belief%/
So do you value unwanted teen pregnancies and higher abortion/divorce rates?
I do not like government interference in pretty much anything - however, there is a point where if individuals are not getting the job done then I think a gradual ramping up of government interference is warranted.
Conservatives have offered to teach abstinence. That's great, but it only works if people are actually practising it, and they are not. Bristol Palin got the abstinence bug only after getting pregnant. A lot of kids in Bristols situation end up on welfare. Do you value that too?

So what is your solution to this? Get the parents to educate their kids? Sounds good to me - how do you get it done? Give me a plan to fix the problem rather than a bunch of partisan BS.

BTW, you might want to have your spellcheck looked at - it seems to be disZeeZZed.:cool:

Steve

Wayne Maybury 02-17-2010 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy (Post 1029076)
Wayne,

I too was very frustrated by the slow pace at which my son learned to consider consequences, until I read the results of research into development of the human brain. It seems that the ability to weigh consequences is one of the last skills developed by most humans, and many of them do not reach that level until their mid 20s. Of course we've all seen examples of people who never developed that ability.
Tommy, I hear you but I guess what I wanted to say was that children today tend to be very sheltered from any sort of responsibility. If something goes wrong it is always the fault of someone else. The kid does poorly in his/her exams, it is the teacher's fault. The fact that the kid spent hours in front of the TV or computer instead of studying is forgotten. We were not angels but if we got caught doing something wrong at school, the last thing we wanted was for our parents to find out because that was worse than whatever disipline we got at school. We learned about consequences very quickly.

The wife of a friend of mine was a high school teacher in upstate New York. She enjoyed her teaching career until about 10 years ago when she just couldn't wait until she could take early retirement. Many of the kids were verbally abusive and some bordered on being physically abusive. If a teacher did anything that the kid didn't like, the parents would come to the school raising hell instead of doing a decent job bringing up their children. She said some of the kids were bad, but some of the parents were worse as "little Johnny" could do no wrong.

Wayne


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