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Jim |
I just got back from a cruise in the Cobra. There is nothing in the world (at least to me) like the feel, response, and SOUND of a set of Webers on a big block pulling up through the gears. Wide-open throttle will rip your face off!
Believe it or not, I've never used an LM-1. I know a lot of tuners swear by them but I'm an old school kind of guy and rely on throwback methods of getting my setup correct. It may take me a bit longer to get there but I feel a bit more connected to my engine. I also have no first-hand experience with Weber look-alike fuel injection, however, a couple of people I know who have worked with them (Billy Andrews at HRE is one) said those systems are not strictly bolt-on setups and can be more frustrating to dial in than a set of Webers. I'm sure those systems perform OK once they're properly installed but it's hard to imagine FI giving me more performance than my 48's. The car is barely controllable when I boot it and that's with 3.31 gears and a Toploader. What can I say, I think Webers are *****in'. |
BTW, Weber-equipped Cobras won at least two European hillclimbs in 1965 on their way to the GT championship, the Freiburg and the Rossfeld. Altitude obviously didn't hinder them way back when. It's all in the setup.
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Second, no carb. works perfectly at sea level AND at 6000'. Jim |
I think all the info on the webers is great,all have a good points. I think Jim #2 point about sea level and and alitude is right on. I put a 911 motor with webers in my VW buss 1971 and it almost die one summer going over going to the sun road in Montana. Thats the summer I melted two exhaust Values off 106.degrees and 9,000 ft Air cooled and all Alum. didn"t help
I did not tune my webers back then and didn"t have a feel for how they work. I do no that ever thing fast in the olds days had webers on them. My first ride in Cobra was in small block 289 with webers and that car flat pin you in the seat. My son who work on a funny car team for two season say carbs are like drlling holes in a wood block and pouring gas in., and he is very good with carbs. FI is the way to go, but the price has to come down for the average guy to have one. I just got my webers for my big block ford and am looking forward to getting them right. A%/ndy |
The point about the primitive Lucas/Rochester fuel injection units in the 1960's is well taken, however, there were other conventional carburetors available to Shelby back then which could flow plenty of CFM, even more so in dual-quad configuration. Competition 427 Cobras ran a single Holley, as did L88 Corvettes. Shelby's guys still chose to run the Webers.
I can only speak from personal experience. I have never driven my car from where I live, Cape Cod--which is dead sea level--to a 6000 foot altitude. But I have driven to the White Mountains of New Hampshire and the Berkshires in Western Massachusetts on numerous occasions and never had a serious drop in performance. Granted, the disparity in altitude is more like 3000 feet, so higher destinations could require adjusting the setup. I would welcome the challenge. Andrew, you will be thrilled with those Webers once you get them tuned up, especially if you're any kind of authenticity freak like me. Good luck and get ready for a real thrill ride. |
So how do you go down this path and finish without a $$$ box full of jets, emulsion/choke tubes, etc.? It's bad enough spending four grand (plus) for what is essentially carburation. I love reading about how you guys sort this out, but the price of admission honestly scares the crap out of me.
And BTW, virtually all forms of carburation suffer at higher altitudes when tuned at/near sea level. I wouldn't expect Webers to be any different in that regard. -Dean |
I also have to question the initial expense of Weber's plus the added expense of extra jets, choke tubes and whatever other $$ items are needed to get it operating correctly. I understand the "WOW" effect when he hood is opened but if the effect is that important, why cover them up with a hood? It was mentioned that the originals raced with the Weber's rather than a carburetor and I suppose there is an advantage in the racing environment however that environment rarely goes below 3K rpm. I might see 6K for 10 seconds on a long freeway on ramp a dozen times a year and for that my $350.00 Holley DP does just fine. As far as efficiency goes, carburetors are pretty much a somewhat controlled fuel leak compared to FI.
I understand the desire of the Weber's and appreciate the visual effect but I really have a hard time wraping my mind around the performance gain over a 4bbl in a street vehicle. Just another opinion.%/ |
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One of the reasons for the single Holley was they had the center hung float, where the dual Holley's required the shorter carburators that have the side hung floats. The center hung floats are not affected by the cornering forces as much as the side hung floats. |
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One of the reasons I love this car is it's simple and I can work on it. Reminds me of my younger days. :D |
The late Ak Miller used to run a small-block Ford powered special in the Pike's Peak Hill Climb for years. Won it many times. He ran Webers. Holleys are great carburetors and we've all had them. Shelby ran Webers on the Cobras and Ford GT's. Are Webers simple? No. Are they for everyone? No. Are they more expensive? Yes. What it all comes down to is personal preference like any other issue regarding high performance cars. The bottom line is I'm happy I chose the Webers and feel it was right for me. It took some time to get them dialed in but the rewards, at least, for me, were well worth the time and expense. And I totally agree with you Silverback 51 as to the overall satisfaction of fine tuning an engine by the seat of your pants. That's the way we learned how to do it years ago and it's becoming a lost art.
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Very pleased with my Webers. Only wish I had known about the Berg 58's, (now available up to 61's), for more flow for this engine:
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d..._Cobra_035.jpg Alan Sorkey Shreveport, LA CSX4083 |
It's never too late Alan.
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Jim, Sorry you are way off on that. The Webers, manifold and linkage, with fuel lines and blocks and synchrometer was $3750 including tax. I think they've gone up a little now but that's what I paid. All the extra parts I needed came from various sources on eBay...some from Italy and some from California. You'd be surprised at how many businesses sell the exact same stuff on eBay they sell through catalogs, and give you about a 30-40% discount. All my extra jets, e-tubes, 40mm chokes and fuel pressure regulator totalled around $250. That's $4,000 in my book and is no where near the admission price of Dynatek and TWM. A couple thou less??, and that doesn't start to add in the return fuel lines, high output pump(s), high pressure regulator required for EFI. Plus I am told a dyno pull or two or three is mandatory for EFI. I think the EFI setups cost a lot more than Webers. Like others already said on this thread, the Webers worked for me for a lot less without electronic stuff in the engine bay. |
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Very well put! |
in real life driving carburetor engines are not that finicky when driven to & from the mountains. Last year I drove my GT-350 from TX 600' elevation to NM 7000' elevation and back over 3 day trip. I was all set to change jets once I hit the mountains, but never felt a performance drop-off. I did have to bump up the idle speed at the 3000' elevation mark. Carb was the original 715 cfm Holley.
Z. Ray |
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Parts alone for the TWM or Dynatek setup is about $8,000, once you buy all the odds and sods, and as Tom said the Weber setup is approximately $4,000 with some judicious buying. Sometime in the future, I would like to move to one or the other, but it sounds like either approach is not easy to install and tune. |
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A LM-1 and a laptop are all you need. You can richen up the idle, lean it out a hair between 2500 & 3000 RPM and fatten it up between 4500 & 6000 RPM (or any other adjustments you want) in a couple of mins. with a few clicks of the mouse and you never get dirty. That's the nice thing about it, perfect adjustments throughout the whole RPM range and it compensates for altittude changes. That's not possible with carbs. Jim |
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But for the installation and tuning difficulties, I think I would lean more to the Dynatek for my car. For the moment, I'm not ready to be a "trail-blazer." |
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Tom |
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