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Kirkham Motorsports

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Old 01-24-2022, 11:13 AM
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Default Comparing 4000 and 6000 series

New to the forum and planning to become a new owner in 2022. Lots of questions for the braintrust here but I am trying to do my homework first.

After scanning the forum, I did not see a recent thread comparing the CSX 4000 and 6000 series. I am most interested in your perspectives on the differences in performance and value, if any.

I am wondering if there are fundamental differences between the series themselves, less focused on the specific differences between any two cars Ė for example 4999 and 6000.

Question about value. How would you assess value across the two series? Maybe a specific question would be more helpful here: how would you use comps from recent sales of a 4000 car and a 6000 car that have similar specs? At least similar to my untrained eye anyway.

With the passing of Mr. Shelby, what do you think the effect will be on the long term value of the recent 6000 series cars that donít have his signature on the MSO?

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Old 01-24-2022, 12:33 PM
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They "ran out" of 4xxx numbers and started with 6xxx. Other than that the cars are the same. There are some evolutionary changes and options that may or may not be available any longer, but there are no significant differences.

Older fibreglass 4xxx series cars are thought to be "superior", especially if you can find one that is pre-Hi-Tech (same manufacturer as Superformance, but not the same car). Especially the ones from HST. Mine was a carbon fiber HST car and I thought it was gorgeous. The quality of the body work was perfect.

Same for alloy body cars - early 4xxx alloy cars were built in house, starting at some point they were built by Kirkham (but were different from Kirkham), and at some point the alloy 4xxx/6xxx became just a Kirkham pulled off the line to get a CSX number.

Any of them will serve you well. I still say they were of the highest overall quality of all of the replicas.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:35 PM
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The signature on the MSO - real vs. machine pen - is to most people irrelevant since you surrender the MSO to your state when you get a title. (A MSO is "title number zero") You can make a copy of it. But even if you cheat and say you lost the original, it won't make the car more valuable.
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:23 PM
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They "ran out" of 4xxx numbers and started with 6xxx. Other than that the cars are the same. There are some evolutionary changes and options that may or may not be available any longer, but there are no significant differences.

Older fibreglass 4xxx series cars are thought to be "superior", especially if you can find one that is pre-Hi-Tech (same manufacturer as Superformance, but not the same car). Especially the ones from HST. Mine was a carbon fiber HST car and I thought it was gorgeous. The quality of the body work was perfect.

Same for alloy body cars - early 4xxx alloy cars were built in house, starting at some point they were built by Kirkham (but were different from Kirkham), and at some point the alloy 4xxx/6xxx became just a Kirkham pulled off the line to get a CSX number.

Any of them will serve you well. I still say they were of the highest overall quality of all of the replicas.
Actually the alloy cars could be any variation of Kirkham supplied parts, from either Poland or Utah. On facebook, David was just getting some body and frames to send off to Africa from Utah to be made into CSX cars. He happened to have some in stock in Utah, but it seems body and frames could also be sent from Poland to Africa as well. David mentioned that he has also supplied complete rollers to Shelby, which probably go directly from Utah to Vegas. He supplies whatever they ask for at any given time.
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CompFi View Post
How would you assess value across the two series?
Thanks,
Brian
No difference between the two value wise. Fiberglass body vs Aluminum body, yes. But side by side, identically built CSX4000 series vs CSX6000 series, no.

Do not treat the car as an "investment for the future", but instead a shiny toy you want to own. Why, simple, because Shelby Enterprises is still pumping them out as fast as they can sell them, thus further diluting the market.

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With the passing of Mr. Shelby, what do you think the effect will be on the long term value of the recent 6000 series cars that don’t have his signature on the MSO?

Thanks,
Brian
None at all, sorry.

Bill S.

PS: I'm betting that during his lifetime, CS signed over 100,000 items, some are his actual signature, some are robo signatures he himself authorized. Sadly, they are both worth less today, than when they were originally signed. Value, sentimental more than monetary. Again, sorry.

PSS: I'm also betting that after is passing, the robo signing of his name continued, thus diluting the "value" you speak about above. Again, sorry.
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
No difference between the two value wise. Fiberglass body vs Aluminum body, yes. But side by side, identically built CSX4000 series vs CSX6000 series, no.

Do not treat the car as an "investment for the future", but instead a shiny toy you want to own. Why, simple, because Shelby Enterprises is still pumping them out as fast as they can sell them, thus further diluting the market.



None at all, sorry.

Bill S.

PS: I'm betting that during his lifetime, CS signed over 100,000 items, some are his actual signature, some are robo signatures he himself authorized. Sadly, they are both worth less today, than when they were originally signed. Value, sentimental more than monetary. Again, sorry.

PSS: I'm also betting that after is passing, the robo signing of his name continued, thus diluting the "value" you speak about above. Again, sorry.
Robo signing is still available: https://www.shelby.com/shelbyfoundat...tive-Signature
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post

Do not treat the car as an "investment for the future", but instead a shiny toy you want to own. Why, simple, because Shelby Enterprises is still pumping them out as fast as they can sell them, thus further diluting the market.
I think you'll find that a Shelby CSX car will retain its value or slightly appreciate over the purchase price. I'll assert that it will apply to Kirkham and a well built Superformance will to a lesser degree. I made a slight amount when I sold my CSX (maybe because of the carbon fiber). When adding the standing-still costs of insurance and license/registration I basically broke even. Older cars will have more of a gain than newer cars. The reason is that all of these, if built and maintained well, track the cost of replacement with a new one.

Quote:
PS: I'm betting that during his lifetime, CS signed over 100,000 items, some are his actual signature, some are robo signatures he himself authorized. Sadly, they are both worth less today, than when they were originally signed. Value, sentimental more than monetary. Again, sorry.

PSS: I'm also betting that after is passing, the robo signing of his name continued, thus diluting the "value" you speak about above. Again, sorry.
You could send anything to the foundation and have it signed. Glove box covers were probably the most popular item. I'd wager that a '07 Shelby GT500 Mustang WITHOUT a signature on the dash is rarer than those with. These parts still show up on eBay for exorbitant prices but don't sell. I was at Gardena one day when he was signing. He didn't do too many at a time because if you recall your signature at the mortgage closing the last one didn't look much like the first one.

The robo signatures are different than the in person ones - three vs two hash marks? (or the reverse of that).
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:36 PM
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I think you'll find that a Shelby CSX car will retain its value or slightly appreciate over the purchase price.
Potentially, depending on when you purchased your car (before the big price increases), and in the right venue, you might, M-I-G-H-T turn a mild profit on a fiberglass car. Aluminum, same thing, only a more volatile market that swings with the stock market. If you are purchasing "new" today, once again, it is not an "investment grade" item. Maybe if you hold it for 20-50 years, and there are still people around then that remember what a combustion engine is, or how to brew their own gasoline, perhaps, but I would not count on the car appreciating as long as they continue to pump others out that are newer than yours.

Again, just my two cents worth as someone who has been involved in the hobby since the early 80's

Bill S.

PS: We are talking, stand alone, private sales, as auction results can vary greatly depending on the amount of alcoholic drinks served, and the ego(s) involved at that time. Auction results, do not make the market as a whole.
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Old 01-24-2022, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post

You could send anything to the foundation and have it signed. Glove box covers were probably the most popular item. I'd wager that a '07 Shelby GT500 Mustang WITHOUT a signature on the dash is rarer than those with. These parts still show up on eBay for exorbitant prices but don't sell. I was at Gardena one day when he was signing. He didn't do too many at a time because if you recall your signature at the mortgage closing the last one didn't look much like the first one.

The robo signatures are different than the in person ones - three vs two hash marks? (or the reverse of that).
I remember some 15 or so years ago, there was a joke going around, that non signed glovebox cars would be worth more then signed!
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Old 01-24-2022, 11:42 PM
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*First off there were running changes during the 4000 and 6000 Series cars, brakes, gauges, wiring harnesses, suspension components, etc…
*An aluminum car will always be more valuable than a glass or composite body car.
*It has not happened yet but I believe there will be price premiums on Continuation cars that were built during Shelby’s lifetime vs those that were built afterwards.
*I also believe that cars built under Superformance’s licensing agreement with SAI will be less valuable as they are completely detached from SAI.
*Look at which shop completed the assembly and the components used for the build.

To say that the Continuation Series Cobras have not appreciated over time is being out of touch with reality, cars that were bought when the program first started are seeing better than modest gains in their investments, especially the aluminum bodied cars.
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:07 AM
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...... I still say they were of the highest overall quality of all of the replicas.
the problem is: they are not

the highest quality replica, wich would also be the highest worth replica, especially if they are called CSX Continuation Cobra, would be a nut and bolt original reproduction.
This is what the CSX cars are not, anyway as glass cars, but even the aluminum cars are far away from originality, as rollers and as turnkey cars.

If you want a nut and bolt original spec CSX Continuation Cobra, you have to rebuild it completely...

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Old 01-25-2022, 03:37 AM
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If you want a nut and bolt original spec CSX Continuation Cobra, you have to rebuild it completely...
Or special order it from Kirkham first


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Old 01-25-2022, 04:22 AM
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the problem is: they are not

the highest quality replica, wich would also be the highest worth replica, especially if they are called CSX Continuation Cobra, would be a nut and bolt original reproduction.
This is what the CSX cars are not, anyway as glass cars, but even the aluminum cars are far away from originality, as rollers and as turnkey cars.

If you want a nut and bolt original spec CSX Continuation Cobra, you have to rebuild it completely...
Or ask Shelby to build you a "completion" car instead of a "continuation" car, in which case Kirkham might build it anyway. After a long break, Shelby got 3 different vendors to bulid 3 "completion" cars a few years ago.
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:47 AM
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Or ask Shelby to build you a "completion" car instead of a "continuation" car, in which case Kirkham might build it anyway. After a long break, Shelby got 3 different vendors to bulid 3 "completion" cars a few years ago.
Yes, the name "Shelby" was involved but those cars were not built by/for Shelby American. They were offered throughthe Shelby Foundation as completed cars - with power train - but not legal for street use (yeah, right). I don't know if any of them were ever sold.

I would have loved to have had McClusky's car.
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:50 AM
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the problem is: they are not

the highest quality replica, wich would also be the highest worth replica, especially if they are called CSX Continuation Cobra, would be a nut and bolt original reproduction.
This is what the CSX cars are not, anyway as glass cars, but even the aluminum cars are far away from originality, as rollers and as turnkey cars.

If you want a nut and bolt original spec CSX Continuation Cobra, you have to rebuild it completely...
I know you have a burr under your saddle and it really itches whenever Shelby's name is mentioned. But that kind of "nuts and bolts" car isn't built by anyone. So in the class of "current replicas" I'll stand by the quality of the CSX cars, especially up until about 2009 or so, as being superior. After they went to HiTech they weren't special but still retain value better than the others.

And all of them basically track current replacement cost (since it was stated that Shelby and all the others crank them out based on demand).

A number of years ago I was mistakenly sent the Shelby internal price sheet (which had their cost). The margins were quite handsome. There is no reason to believe the others in the class don't benefit from similar profits.

And everyone fawns over ERA, but I wasn't impressed.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:40 AM
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Yes, the name "Shelby" was involved but those cars were not built by/for Shelby American. They were offered throughthe Shelby Foundation as completed cars - with power train - but not legal for street use (yeah, right). I don't know if any of them were ever sold.

I would have loved to have had McClusky's car.
It looks like at least one was sold: https://www.beckerautogroup.com/inve...27-s-c-csx3066
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Old 01-25-2022, 01:04 PM
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I would much rather have a Vegas built car CSX4000 vs the higher number. But thats me.
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:25 PM
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Allan A
have to agree with that.
I might be a little biased
Tom
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Old 01-25-2022, 05:41 PM
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I would much rather have a Vegas built car CSX4000 vs the higher number. But thats me.
Well, yes, and no, it all depends on the build, and the final builder. Professionally built and finished, vs professionally built roller, and finished in someones basement. There are quite a few stories out there of both having to be torn down and rebuilt do to poor workmanship.......

I will agree, the earlier sold CSX4000 series cars that are fully sorted will hold more of a chance of being sold at a profit than the later cars. The first part of that is of course the early cars benefited from a lack of price increases, thus giving the original owners a better chance of breaking even, or turning a small profit. Once you get into the resale market after that, and I've said it before, don't bother viewing the car as a investment, but a shiny bauble that you want to own. Great deals (100% of them private and not advertised publically) happen, but they are far and few between, and no offense, but people like me generally get those calls

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Old 01-26-2022, 12:05 AM
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I know you have a burr under your saddle and it really itches whenever Shelby's name is mentioned.
sorry Tony, but that is completely wrong, I am surprised and curious why you are thinking of me that way, I am a huge fan of CS, SAI and CSX Cobras but also traveled/travelling a very long journey to rebuild my 7000 Alu-series to nut and bolt specs...
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