Tko600 Warning!!!!

[Fordfan69]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to pass on my experience to everyone out there thinking of putting a TKO600 tranny in their ride. This started out as a pleasure and quickly turned into a nightmare.

In June of 2006, I purchased a complete TKO600 tranny kit from a company called Keisler Engineering that cost me almost $4000. I installed it and even spent 4 hours re-dialing in the bellhousing after I was told that it would be machined out exactly of the existing center (it was a Lakewood shield that was already dialed in to within .003") It came back to me with the machining way off. I then installed the tranny using the proper GM Synchromesh fluid and broke the tranny in for over 1000 miles properly. After driving it around for approx. 1400 miles or so and only 2-1/2 months, I decided to go to the track just for fun.

This is a street car and I have put it on the chassis dyno (two different places) and it only put out 385 Rear Wheel HP and 445 Rear Wheel torque. Even if you add a generous 100 to those numbers for drivetrain friction, I am still well within the SUPPOSED 650 Ft.lbs. it's rated at. I have Mickey Thompson E.T. Street radials that are pretty soft tires (295-60-15)

My VERY FIRST RUN DOWN THE TRACK, the transmission broke third gear; sheared all of the teeth off. I took off at 3000 rpm and shifted 1-2 and 2-3 at 6000 rpm. Not powershifted. I definitely did NOT miss the shift and it was in gear (the dog teeth and synchro blocker ring are in mint shape -indication there was zero missed or grinded shift).

I pulled the unit and sent it back to Keisler for warranty inspection. They looked at it and told me it was determined that it was classified as ABUSE because it was raced at the track. They don't warranty anything that is driven at the track. The gear broke and it is abuse? Have you seen the advertisement from Tremec showing the Mustang pulling the wheels off the ground at the track and stating "Whether it's the endurance needed for Road Racing or the sheer strength necessary to win at the Drags, there's a Tremec Transmission built for you" (Hot Rod magazine, December 2006, P. 67). It shows the TKO600 in that ad.

That to me means the transmission was built for the street as well as the strip (at least occasionally). I wouln't even complain if I took the car to the track many times and put many runs behind it, but the very first run, and it breaks. Remember, only 385 Horse at the wheels and 445 lb./ft. at the wheels.

So, I just wanted to warn you if you car is more powerful than this and you are looking for a tranny, keep my experience in mind (especially if you want to race it) when shopping around as well as the integrity and honor of the company that you purchase from. NOT ONE THAT YOU PAY ALMOST $4000 TO AND THEN THEY BASICALLY TURN THEIR BACK ON YOU WITH LEGAL LOOPHOLES, when they advertise the tranny is strong wnough for 650 lb./ft, when it breaks, they can say, well it wasn't driven on the street so we don't have to cover it.

So, beware and choose you tranny and supplier wisely. I have also found another user with exactly the same destructive results with 3rd gear in the same tranny. COINCIDENCE - I DON'T THINK SO.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o.../100_0849a.jpg

Good luck and I hope this prevents the aggravation and financial loss to someone else looking for a tranny, that it caused me.

[lineslinger]

Have you contacted Tremec directly or are you trying to get results through Keisler. I would give Tremec customer service a call and see what their reaction is. You can be sure they are well aware of the amount purchasers and sophistication of the customers that are on the CC website.
I'll bet if you can get a hold of the right guy you might realize some satisfaction in dealing with your situation.
Man, four grand for a gearbox and a supplemental "kit", whatever that is, is a lot of cash out pocket to have the manufacturer tell you to get stuffed.
Giving Keisler a call and relay your plan, that may also shake a few cages on their end. Don't let these suppliers turn their nose up at you, I did battle with Nikon for over 3 months over an underwater camera that failed at FIFTEEN feet when it was supposed to be good to 220'.
I finally ended up talking to Mr. Shinoda, exe. VP of Nikon of North America and got a new camera out of it.... which they should have done in the first place.
Stay after them, be persistent and good luck.

[LMH]

What kind of car is the trans in?
What was "machined"?
Larry

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

.In June of 2006, I purchased a complete TKO600 tranny kit from a company called Keisler Engineering that cost me almost $4000.
.

What was done to the tranny to make it so expensive, as I believe the TKO's are about $1600 ?

[jdog]

I just had a TKO600 installed in my car 2 months ago for 1/2 of that! You got hosed!

jdog
P.S. So far it's been a great trans.

[Fordfan69]

The tranny was installed in a 1968 Dodge Charger R/T and I had a Lakewood scattersheild in it. I had to send it to Keisler and they had to send it out to have the bearing retainer hole bored out to the TKO spec from the Hemi box diameter. That is what was not done correctly and forced me to re-dial in the sheild.

The kit included TKO 600 tranny (tailhousing lightly milled on top so it bolts into 68 dodge B-body without cutting torsion bar crossmember), driveshaft with tranny yoke, speedo cable, modified transmission mounting brace and ford mount, and Spec stage 3+ clutch disc and p.plate ($480).

You're right - it is very expensive. But, I didn/t want to cut up the car - it's original, numbers and all.

Keisler pretty much turned their back on me. Tremec won't warranty it because they say that Keisler opened it up and they can't vouch for their work. They are, however, looking at pictures of the gear and see if they can determine the cause of the failure.

[LMH]

I'm sorry to hear about the probelms your having. I hope you can find a solution that works.
It does state on Keislers website that any warranty will be voided if used for racing. That's why they aren't backing you on this.
I'm wondering if you just got a bad gear. There are lots of cars on this site using 600's that are in the 500 horse range and failures are rare. (some people, like me, can break anything though!)
Good luck!
Larry

[Fordfan69]

Thanks for the kind words, Larry.

You are absolutely right in that it does state that on the website. However, I am annoyed at the fact that I was very clear with my intentions with this transmission when I ordered it from Keisler. They didn't once state to me that I couldn't or should'n't race it at the racetrack. When I stated concern over its durability, they just kept saying, they sold many to cars with 600-700 horspower and no problem.

If that was the case and they would have told me I couldn't race it occasionally, I really would have purchased a different transmission.

I guess - live and learn.
Greg.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

You are absolutely right in that it does state that on the website. However, I am annoyed at the fact that I was very clear with my intentions with this transmission when I ordered it from Keisler. They didn't once state to me that I couldn't or should'n't race it at the racetrack. When I stated concern over its durability, they just kept saying, they sold many to cars with 600-700 horspower and no problem.

If that was the case and they would have told me I couldn't race it occasionally, I really would have purchased a different transmission.

The mopar A-833 4 speed was the strongest from the big three, a wide ratio unit, I think about 2.6:1 first gear. Run it with 3.54-3.73 rears, maybe get away with 3.23's.

[Tim Brewer]

"Race it" That's so stupid.... What kind of cars do they think those type of transmissions are going into..mini vans? They're transmissions for high performance cars. I can drive my car harder on the street than the track anytime if I wanted to! Sounds like a pretty weak trans to me..

[lineslinger]

Are you saying that Tremec is sidestepping their warranty obligation because Keisler opened up the box to make their modifications?
Does Tremec recognize Keisler as an authorised distributor of their product?
Did Keisler know you were going to race the car before they did their mods?
If they did the work try to find out why they won't stand behind it. Ask Tremec why they won't stand behind the components in ther transmissions and tell both of them their answers will be made known to their customer base.
You got stuck on a technicality, too bad neither one of them will step and take care of a customer, not surprising however...more like typical.
Start harassing the top dogs and don't let up. Let us know what happens.

[Fordfan69]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. Over a week has gone by and I'm still haven't heard anything from Tremec. I think I will wait until the end of the week and then call them.

Also, I took 3rd gear over to a tool and die manufacturing co. and had them Rockwell test the gear for hardness. It was 60-60.5 on the R. scale which he said was very very hard. He was surprised being that a metal file is just about a 65. It is a Chromemoly gearset though, so it might be right. I would love to know if there is a test to see if it is too brittle though. Anybody out there know? I might look into bringing it to a Metalurgist to see if he can tell me anything about the failure.

finally, when I rebuild this unit, I am definitely going to put gear mesh paint on all of the gears and test the mesh pattern, just like they do on the rear ends. There might be nothing wrong with the gear and it might have been from improper mesh/backlash. That will tell alot. I looked closely at second gear and I don't like the mesh pattern at all. That's what gave me the idea of checking them all.

Thanks very much for the comments and feedback. I'll keep you posted as soon as I hear back from Tremec.

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by LMH

It does state on Keislers website that any warranty will be voided if used for racing. That's why they aren't backing you on this.

Memo to self...when buying a transmission, take my business to someone else (perhaps Tremec direct?).

-Dean

[496fe]

I then installed the tranny using the proper GM Synchromesh fluid and broke the tranny in for over 1000 miles properly

.

Ruh Roh. I didn't read those parts of the manual. I just thrash the stick around and it keeps going faster.

[Ant]

Fordfan69,

Regarding Rockwell hardness, I could be wrong but I think around 57 is par for the course for a road race transmission, and the drag race transmissions are a bit softer in the gears at around 52 rockwell, at least that is the choice from suppliers like Jerico! The softer gears wear out quicker and the harder gears are more prone to loosing teeth compared to the softer gears.

I think Tremec need to look at the design of the TKO-500, 600 series, as other transmissions like Toploaders, Muncies dont have all these problems, plus Tremec make the T56 which is apparently a good trans, which is available with special gear sets for racing by several suppliers. My question is why race with a transmission that is not designed or up to racing and they also state Road race gearset.....? The only selling point is the cruising top gear, and that probably applies more to road users!! BUT there may be a lot of TKO-600's out there that give years of trouble free hard usage.

Another alternative, and pardon me for mentioning Japanese, as I am not a Jap car fan, but a Toyota Supra twin turbo or suchlike transmission would have to be better made and last longer than most, plus stand reasonably high horsepower levels. I wonder what the Jap race 750 + bhp brigade are using in their drift cars etc.

[Greg Haile]

JEEEEZZ - I just installed the exact same setup from Keisler and I'll be pushing 550HP. They charged me 90 bucks to do what they call a "quality check" prior to shipping. I was told they will not stand behind the tranny without it, and now they're brushing you off??? Its also unbelievable that Tremec will not stand behind their dealer. I never would have used them if I would have read your story first. I would like to believe we have strength in numbers and can have an impact. I'll go somewhere else from now on.

Greg

[trularin]

I just swapped out my toploader for a TKO600. I turned about 500 miles on it before I cranked it up.

I had no problems.

I would have to ask some of the same questions here, what did Tremec say?

BTW, I got my stuff from JimiG and they have been great.

[Jimi G]

First of all in order to be able to open up Tremec trannies, without voiding the warranty, you have to be an authorized repair center, which we at Standard Transmission are, and just about the only one in the nation. Secondly, you have to be careful where you purchase these transmissions from, alot of times you will get what seems to be good cus. service before the sale. But after that you find out either they didn't know what they were talking about, which I believe is the case here, or they have forgotten you just spent several thousand dollars with them and could care less about your little questions or concerns. Unless, of course, you are wanting another tranny and then they are your best friend again. You would be very suprised if you were to search different forums about the Company being discussed, you find alot of the same issues with them, from a lot of different people. I am not here to bash another company, I would think it would be in anyones best interest to research a company before makeing a large purchase like this. I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you this the service I provide my customers is the most important thing I can provide them. With good cus. service the sales and everything else will just fall into place. But that's just my opinion for what it is worth. jimig@standardtransmission.com

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jimi G

First of all in order to be able to open up Tremec trannies, without voiding the warranty, you have to be an authorized repair center, which we at Standard Transmission are, and just about the only one in the nation.

I guess the lesson is that you should always buy from the manufacturer (builder) themselves if possible, or definitely find out in advance if they are an authorized ddealer.

[Snakebit]

Why did you have to pay $90 for a quality check on the trans??? If you are spending that kind of money on a trans and they told me you should have a quality check for $90 that would send up a big red flag! Tremac should be doing the quailty check before the trans leaves the factory.

Even on a rebuild, they don't ask you for $90 to do a quality check, hell they should be doing that when they are assembling the tranny, that's what you are paying for!!!