Ordered a Superformance Cobra, trying to make some decisions.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yes, it's cheaper. It's better than a SBF. It's better than a non-Ford engine. But a lot of people would not buy your car with it in there.

I'm one of those fickle people.

I remember going to take a look at a used Kirkham that the seller had originally installed a 460 in. The seller was unable to sell his Kirkham with the 460, so he removed the 460, installed an FE, and then sold it. Also, at least in the Kirkham, one of the cross-members had to be "clearanced" to install the 460.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm one of those fickle people.

I remember going to take a look at a used Kirkham that the seller had originally installed a 460 in. The seller was unable to sell his Kirkham with the 460, so he removed the 460, installed an FE, and then sold it. Also, at least in the Kirkham, one of the cross-members had to be "clearanced" to install the 460.

I am also, as I was looking all small blocks and 460 based motors were passed over quickly. BUT I also skipped by a lot of iron FE's. Most happened to be built by Southern. I don't do things for resale, I do them for me but in this case I think it is for me. I like the look of the FE with the old school Chrome Pentroof valve covers. That's the look that floats my boat. If I was doing this for resale I would not do it! Hopefully I don't find the need to sell it anytime soon.

[patrickt]

How much cheaper is a 460 than an FE?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

My son and I are going to visit Barry Rabotnick at Survival Motorsports tomorrow. That should be fun and interesting. It is about an hour away from home so not a big deal. Still planning a 482 FE but suddenly allowing the possibility of a 460 big block. More power for near half the price?

Not original but tons of reliable power "cheap". This is a way to knock several thousand off the car. Current thoughts are go with the FE.

If you live THAT close to survival... You SHOULD spend your money there...
You have NO reason in my mind to go anywhere else.

Barry could build you a 390 FE stroked to 445 cubes could easily Meet your hp desires which would save you those up front costs that your seemingly after.

That way you could have the best compromise fulfilling all your desires, with scope of having Barry later "upgrade" you to a 482 by using an aluminium pond block and building a short block using most the same parts you used from the 390

Cheap FE, cheap power, authentic looks, and scope for upgrade to what your heart seemingly really desires - a 482 in all aluminium!!!

That would be my play, if I were in your shoes.

Good luck and enjoy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

That way you could have the best compromise fulfilling all your desires, with scope of having Barry later "upgrade" you to a 482 by using an aluminium pond block and building a short block using most the same parts you used from the 390

Cheap FE, cheap power, authentic looks, and scope for upgrade to what your heart seemingly really desires - a 482 in all aluminium!!!

I'm not an engine builder, but I'd check on this first. I don't think much of anything can be used when you upgrade from the 390/428 (faux FE) architecture to a Pond 427/482 (sideoiler). At the very least, the rings, pistons, heads/valves, rockers, cam, intake and carb would have to be changed. However, everyone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not an engine builder, but I'd check on this first. I don't think much of anything can be used when you upgrade from the 390/428 (faux FE) architecture to a Pond 427/482 (sideoiler). At the very least, the rings, pistons, heads/valves, rockers, cam, intake and carb would have to be changed. However, everyone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless I'm mistaken Barry has a set of heads that fit both 390 and 427 bore sizing, so valvez and valve train would be mostly ok.

Crank & rods could be recycled. As could intake, ignition & distributor, other miscellaneous parts like alternator, pulleys, Oil, water & fuel pumps lines pans... etc... All reusable Id have thought. No?
One could spec a carb that would accommodate both (with jetting changes), like a QF 700 or similar.

Pistons and rings, would need changing.

Brent and Barry would certainly know.

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

But he doesn't care about an FE block, and he says he's never going to sell the car. So why should he put in an FE just to make us all happy?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Unless I'm mistaken Barry has a set of heads that fit both 390 and 427 bore sizing. Crank & rods could be recycled. As could intake, ignition & distributor, other miscellaneous parts like alternator, pulleys, Oil, water & fuel pumps lines pans... etc... All reusable Id have thought. No?
One could spec a carb that would accommodate both (with jetting changes), like a QF 700 or similar.

Pistons and rings, I defer to the pros...

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

You would use the same carb, heads, intake, cranks & rods from a 390 on a 482 build? First and foremost that's an additional 92 cubic inches and second I don't think alot of those parts even fit on both engines.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Barry could build you a 390 FE stroked to 445 cubes could easily Meet your hp desires which would save you those up front costs that your seemingly after.

Detroit Bill: I see Brent has the 390-based 431/445 on his Web site at $13,350 (Lykins Motorsports, LLC). That seems competitive with the 385 and a bunch less money than the Pond block, while providing the authenticity of an FE. Win/Win!!

The closest I could find on Brent's dyno pages to the above engine was this:
487 ci FE, 536 hp @ 6000, 583 lb-ft. 4.270 x 4.250, Scat cast crankshaft, Scat H-beam rods, Diamond pistons, 10.5:1. Comp Cams hydraulic roller, 245/248 @ .050", .634"/.634" lift, 110 LSA. Edelbrock RPM heads with competition valve job, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Quick Fuel BD-850 carburetor. Stuska dyno.

So, then 487 FE has a bit bigger bore and displacement, but same crank and stroke and, as near as I can tell, pretty much the same components. Knock off a bit for the CI and the 431/445 still looks like it's just shy of 500 HP - well over the 400 HP that's supposedly 'usable' on street cars.

Rather than speculating - let's ask the builder.

Brent: What does the 390-based 431/445 typically pull on the dyno?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Rather than speculating - let's ask the builder.

Brent: What does the 390-based 431/445 typically pull on the dyno?

Truth is that's going to depend the Dyno.

[blykins]

482's with CNC ported heads and a well-chosen camshaft will make around 550-575 hp here.

431's-445's with CNC ported heads will go about 500-525 hp.

The 487 that you pulled off my website was for a customer out of Canada. He supplied his own cylinder heads, which were basically out-of-the-box Edelbrock heads. We just did a valve job to clean them up and bolted them on.

[cycleguy55]

There are obviously some Cobras which are more 'authentic' or 'truer' to the original cars than others. I'm not going to start listing brand names as that will likely kick off a discussion that has already taken place far too often, but it seems to me those which are more authentic have more to gain by using an FE or SBF than do those which are less authentic (e.g. West Coast, Kellison, Factory Five Mk3).

In my case, I'm quite happy with the warmed over 460 in my West Coast. OTOH, if it was a CSX, Kirkham or Superformance I'd probably be looking hard at an FE.

Just my $0.02. YMMV

[Detroit Bill]

Based on the Keith Craft crate engines

Pond Block FE 482 600 hp 19,000
Production block 514 700 hp 12,000

Certainly a reason to pause. The BB may have height clearance problems I don't know to flow that much air I don't think they are using a dual plane manifold.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Based on the Keith Craft crate engines

Pond Block FE 482 600 hp 19,000
Production block 514 700 hp 12,000

Are your all-in costs for this car not going to be approaching $100k? If I was going to shave a few grand, I would find it somewhere else. And the HP difference is not important.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Are your all-in costs for this car not going to be approaching $100k? If I was going to shave a few grand, I would find it somewhere else. And the HP difference is not important.

That is a significant $ per HP difference.

There is no where else, skip the floor mats?

It is all good I have worked very hard for many years to be able to do what I want.

[patrickt]

I know you won't believe this, but there is no difference between 600 and 700 horsepower in these cars.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I know you won't believe this, but there is no difference between 600 and 700 horsepower in these cars.

If you specified equal HP engines there would be a significant $/HP difference.
The HP difference was not the point it was an easy example.

I understand the car will be over powered, planning on it. Has anyone ever called you the fun police? I have read you say 1,000 times anything over 400 hp is a waste or something like that. Yea we get it. I have never read one post where someone says it just hooks up in first and goes.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I know you won't believe this, but there is no difference between 600 and 700 horsepower in these cars.

This is the same guy who changed his air cleaner element to a K&N and can feel the "seat of the pants" difference? Oy vey.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Based on the Keith Craft crate engines

Pond Block FE 482 600 hp 19,000
Production block 514 700 hp 12,000

Certainly a reason to pause. The BB may have height clearance problems I don't know to flow that much air I don't think they are using a dual plane manifold.

A Pond aluminum or iron block?

And I wouldn't compare either of those Pond blocks, which are near exact duplicates of the original side-oiler blocks to a production 385 series block.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

A Pond aluminum or iron block?

And I wouldn't compare either of those Pond blocks, which are near exact duplicates of the original side-oiler blocks to a production 385 series block.

I believe the 512 is iron. I am not sure if there is a Pond "460" block?