View Single Post
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2002, 09:22 PM
Andy Dunn's Avatar
Andy Dunn Andy Dunn is offline
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: upland, ca,
Posts: 355
Send a message via ICQ to Andy Dunn
Not Ranked     
Default

Bob, those are great points and I often fall into the trap of chasing peak HP Now on the other hand, more often than not, the engine with peak HP also has the highest peak TQ as well, when holding all variables constant and only altering cam. As you stated though....peak HP is a long rpm way away from street driving and so initial TQ is just as important for street engine. Vince, here are additional points on some of the ideas being posted.


last dyno file - cam data
Here is why our files are different. I get 576@7000 on the dyno chart you gave me....so yes, it is still a screamer. Here is your dyno chart
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/vince/vince351a.gif

and here is my chart of the same thing
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/vince/vince351b.gif

one of the things that took me a while to learn using dyno2000, is entering cam data. Just one error and the chart becomes way off. I think this is one reason why many people distrust the software....really they have entered in some parameters incorrectly. Here are the two data cam files. This top one is yours and the next one is the one I got off the cam CD



the intake centerline needs to be 108 and then I think the lift numbers are just a little off. This is one of the reasons I use a lot of crane cams for examples...I find they give the data in an easier format on their site. Comp gives enough data, but it is trickier to enter. Here is the data website page on that comp cam. They give the lobe separation but not the intake centerline
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/vince/comp.gif

Crane gives the two angles
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/vince/crane.gif

and so you can use the intake as 108, and then you divide the two in half to get the lobe center. Here is a little tutorial page on how to use the crane spec card in dyno2000
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/crane_spec_card.gif


tree puller vs screamer
It looks like Gary and I both lean toward the screamer style cam, where other folks lean toward the stump puller cams. Each cam is a trade-off. If you car is 90% street driven, you might prefer a cam that brings in TQ and HP sooner and at lower RPM. If you enjoy autocross and track events, you may prefer the higher revving HP cams. I think 3/4 people prefer low TQ and 1/4 prefer higher HP. Therefore the engine characteristics are often subjective, and you will have to decide what you think is optimal. You have seen the engine above that leans to the screamer side....now the other side of the spectrum is a cam that leans to the stump puller side.
http://www.cobralads.com/dyno2000/vince/vince351c.gif

Most TQ cams make a very even M shaped pattern with TQ and HP evenly distributed. This is a great street driven cam. Massive amounts of TQ at 2000 rpm....how about 425TQ ...there aren't a set of performance tires made that can hook that up. This car will feel like a beast down low. Now lets take that exact cam and engine and compare it with a screamer style cam and see how they differ. Here are the specs

SEMI STUMP PULLER
449601 224 232 | .542 .563 angles 107 117
http://www.cranecams.com/motorsports...ler/449601.htm

SEMI SCREAMER
448601 246 254 | .579 .598 angles 108 112
http://www.cranecams.com/master/apps/ford34.htm

and here are the two cams on your engine with a 750 holley for lower ci 351. Solid line is stump and dotted scream


Notice PEAK TQ is almost identical.

the trade off
the trade off is initial TQ or peak HP. You can have 425TQ at 2000 or 365TQ at 2000, or you can have 575HP @ 7000 or you can have 490HP @ 6000. That is the tradeoff. Again, most people like kick in the pants, down low TQ. Then a few folks like me and Gary like to get that high peak HP. You must decide what is best for you (and you can always go somewhere in the middle).

best advice
the best advice in my opinion is to call the cam companies and talk to the tech support. They will ask you all about your engine and your driving needs. They will then recommend a couple cams to best meet your needs. They always have very good advice. I would even suggest calling twice because each tech person has their own favorite set of cams and two different people at the same company may recommend different products.

COMP
1-800-999-0853

CRANE
1-386-258-6174

ISKY
1-323-770-0930

LUNATI / HOLLEY
1-270-781-9741

CROWER
1-619-422-1191


hope this info is useful

Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

PS.
I just checked the comp 282HR cam again and I think that even dyno2000 cam disk has an small error. They have the intake centerline at 108 and I believe that is wrong since it throws the valve timing points off. Here is one way I like to enter comp cams. If you use their data, and seat to seat, you can enter the black area numbers, and then the last thing to do is guess numbers in the red circle. I start and the lobe center angle, in this case, 112, and work down one degree at a time. When the yellow areas match, you have the cam perfectly entered.
http://www.cobralads.com/gif/comp3.gif

Last edited by Andy Dunn; 11-11-2002 at 11:28 PM..
Reply With Quote