Alert to 460/514 owners

Back in Black · #1 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 02:01 PM

I am sure many of you are aware of this issue, but I want to post it anyway if can save even one of your motors. If you install an aftermarket intake on this motor, do NOT use the front and rear s-gaskets..! Use black RTV silicone seal instead of these two end gaskets... my manufacturer used the gaskets and during our complete inspection at the local tranny shop I drained my oil while changing to a front mounted fan cooled perma-cool oil cooler, a quarter cup of coolant came out the pan first !

(as a side note, these are great guys, my car is the celebrity of the shop, stored up on the lift)

Well, I cut open the oil filter and to my relief there was only a very small amount of fine ferrous dust, from rings/valve springs, etc... so she seems OK and the problem will soon be solved. Providence made me take her in for this hydraulic clutch repair/modification just in time it seems. If you have the full gaskets in there, IMMEDIATELY go loosen your drain plug and see if any WATER/COOLANT comes out. Whether or not it does, immediately change your gasket system. Be very concerned if any coolant comes out.. cut open your filter and carefully inspect it. I went with the Fel-Pro #1231 gasket for my 514, per Ford performance and Edelbrock (I have a Torker 2) She should be back on the road next week, hopefully in time to go to Oktoberfest here

Mr.Fixit · #2 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 02:56 PM

Pretty much nobody uses the end seals on an intake. Especially if the block or heads have been machined ever.

Back in Black · #3 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 03:06 PM

Of West Coast cobras/West Coast Dreams.. he did...

And I have heard from several local racing build shops that they are seeing a lot of this from home intake installs... people that should be paying a professional shop to do the work.

Mr.Fixit · #4 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 04:13 PM

Tell Vern to add tranny fluid too.

wtcobra · #5 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 05:33 PM

Where did the water originate? I don't know about the 460 for sure but on the FE's you would get a oil leak if the ends of the intake were not properly sealed. I use the end seals and silicone sealer. I also fit the intake and measure the ends to determine how thick a seal to use, and cut the seal material accordingly. If it leaks, I redo it, no big deal.

wt

Back in Black · #6 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 05:42 PM

Yes, that's the exact procedure recommended by everyone i have consulted so far.. toss the end pieces and use black RTV silicone intead on each end.

The tranny was almost dry again whe they checked it.. although it must have occured recently, we believe. This may be a tranny with a defective front retainer seal or the split case may be leaking, as per a recent thread here on the club. We are testing it with dextron to determine where it leaks...the bellhousing had a quart of tranny fluid in it so it's up front. We (the tranny boys and I) are going to fix it all before re-install of course. They are great guys and are letting me use their shop to do other work, like my new oil cooler install. I made a custom aircraft aluminum bracket to mount it up front of the radiator. They also discovered that the bottom two "thru" bolts that hold the "radimatator" on were GONE.. fell out in less than 3k miles.. We are replacing them with the nylon versions. This was likely part of why I had overheating problems around town...... and the front right tie rod is loose or broken, so I have to get that fixed asap...

kountzecobra · #7 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 06:41 PM

Bnb, I thought your car was all new?

Back in Black · #8 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 07:32 PM

For the rear 9 inch housing, which was epoxy painted, and the of course seasoned block from Ford that they turn into the 514. What gave the impression that something was used? As far as I was told

it is all new parts.

CowtownCobra · #9 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 07:40 PM

That transmission is new? A quart of fluid in the bellhousing... So much for quality control

Back in Black · #10 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 08:00 AM

There's another thread around here where other Richmond 5 and 6 speed owners are singing the same tune... mostly the front retainer seal leaking... I can tell you that I did not run her hard either, since she only has about 3K on her now, and everything seemed to be balanced in there (clutch/lakewood bellhousing) so it's a factory defect. Thanks Richmond !

By the way, we are going to a much better McCleod clutch.. the Centerforce 2 dual friction gave up after 2k and then more than 450 hp applied it would slip...

HIQ · #11 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 08:54 AM

BinB,
I think you ended up with a GREAT car, but I hope your experiences will help others. When building a custom car the person turning the wrenches matters just as much as the quality of the parts they are using. You built probably the nicest and fastest WestCoast ever, but the number of issues you have had that where the result of Verns work would not be acceptable to me if I had written him the checks I am sure you had to to get your car built. Hope the care you are giving your car gets it sorted out in short order.

Best of Luck!

craigayl · #12 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 01:18 PM

Back in Black

If the cork seals are too thick or not properly trimmed where they mate with heads, they can cause the intake to not come down properly on the intake to head gasket which can cause both cooling leaks and vacuum leaks. For this reason, some mechanics will abandon the cork seals for RTV only. However, if proper procedures are followed to check the end gap vs the cork thickness and that the cork is properly trimmed to mate to the heads, the cork will add little more rigidity to the seal than RTV alone. Some cork end seals come with adhesive on the bottom side, in which case you would only add a thin layer of RTV on the top side. If there is no adhesive, a thin layer of RTV on both sides should be used.

I have installed many intake manifolds and have always used the cork gaskets without incident. Either system is acceptable, but I surely would NOT recommend removal of an intake because it has cork seals. They MAY have been properly installed and are very acceptable

Craig

Mr.Fixit · #13 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 01:51 PM

I disagree there Craigayl,

The thickness of the cork end seals prevent the intake from sitting all the way down. Unless by "trimming" you are referring to shaving the thickness of the cork down, but that would be very hard to do. I don't know a mechanic that uses the cork, I used to until I had to redo a couple of intake seals, and learned otherwise. I also contend that if you put a layer of silicone on both sides of the cork, it has a tendency to squeeze out of place while torquing down. Like sqeezing a wet bar of soap really hard in your hand.

craigayl · #14 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 02:19 PM

Mr. Fixit

I was not referring to shaving the cork. Not sure how you would do that either

I was responding to the original post that indicated that a cooling leak was caused by the end seals. This could only happen if the cork was way too thick or if the ends were not properly trimmed and the cork got pinched between the intake and head causing insufficient torque on the gasket around the water cross-over.

As I said in my last post, I have put together many without incident. I don’t disagree with using RTV only, but the cork can be used very successfully if installed properly.

Craig

Back in Black · #15 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 06:44 PM

And LOL @ Mr. Fixit's byline about inspecting running carbs

Back in Black · #16 (**permalink**) 10-14-2003, 08:47 AM

The Ford Racing tech line, so I can get the torque specs on my motor...
I thought I would follow up/report that the split case WAS leaking... it came that way from Richmond. It has less than 3,000 mostly easy miles. At this point I would not recommend one, if this is what they call quality control.. we are inspecting it today, splitting the case and re-sealing with heavy equipment case sealant. We put dextron in it and it seeped out of the entire leading edge...

New McCleod clutch and heavy duty pressure plate, "hard" slave cylinder for the hydraulic TO bearing, and a new pedal stop install should solve matters. We are going to pull my pan to verify that there is no bearing damage, before replacing the intake gasket, etc...

Back in Black · #17 (**permalink**) 10-14-2003, 08:52 AM

The tech guy said NOT to use the end cork seals.... !! Use black RTV sealant

cwmcobra · #18 (**permalink**) 10-14-2003, 06:31 PM

If mine leaks, I can blame myself. I had to replace the input shaft before assembling to the engine (don't ask.....), so I resealed the entire case. So, I'm hoping the RTV holds up well and that I hit all the right spots. I'm very familiar with the split case.

Good luck with your fix. Hope it solves the problems. I'll also be installing a pedal stop to protect from blowing out the o-ring in the hydraulic throwout bearing.

Chuck