Definitive Fix for Starter Misalignment

[cwmcobra]

I've just removed the engine/tranny from the Cobra to fix a couple of chronic issues with this engine package. It's a Ford Racing 514 with the combination of Lakewood bellhousing, Ford Racing M-6375-Z460 flywheel, Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, Summit Protorque mini starter and Richmond Gear Street 5-speed tranny. Having built the engine with the Fel-Pro intake gaskets that droop (a Tom Wells term), they were leaking and will be replaced with Victor Reinz Nitroseals. I also have the chipped tooth flywheel problem, with my starter making a lot of racket before it engages ring gear teeth that are intact. I have an obvious misalignment problem with the starter to flywheel ring gear interface. With 5,000 miles on the car, upon teardown the clutch face on the flywheel and the pressure plate look like new. No visible wear at all and the clutch disk has worn about 0.005" total. So, no need to change the flywheel if I can help it. I want to just replace the ring gear on the flywheel and the pinion gear on the starter and find a way to get proper alignment. I called Lakewood to consult, but got no information that would help. Ford Racing told me that the flywheel is made by McLeod, so I called them and talked with our old friend Red Roberts. He answered all my questions and gave me explicit instructions on how to align the starter. I'm going to document the procedure here in hopes that others can benefit as well. First, I ordered a new ring gear for the Ford Racing flywheel, having 176 teeth, the same as I have now. It's McLeod part number F40235 (likely to change in the future since B&M has bought McLeod). I ordered it through Summit at a cost of $56.39. A local auto machine shop will remove the old ring gear and heat and press fit the new one for $20. I already have the Summit Protorque starter and have ordered a replacement pinion gear, part number 820509 at a cost of $14.95. All in all, a cheap repair, considering the cost of new flywheels, clutches, bellhousings and starters. I will now have new ring gear and starter pinion that should last a long time with proper alignment.

So, here's the alignment procedure from Red. This for either a new build or an engine with the bellhousing removed so you can see the gear engagement.

1. With bellhousing removed, tighten the block plate to the block with 2-3 bolts to keep in in position.

2. Install flywheel

3. Install the starter with it's upper bolt only, finger tight.

4. From the flywheel side of the block plate, check the engagement of the starter pinion with the ring gear teeth on the flywheel. Use a simple gage made from a large paper clip. It has to be large one for the proper diameter. Pull the starter pinion out by prying it with a screwdriver until one pinion tooth is between two ring gear teeth. The proper radial (from the flywheel center) alignment is when a straightened large paper clip fits between the OD of the pinion tooth and the root of the ring gear.

5. If the starter needs to be moved to achieve this proper alignment, elongate the lower starter bolt hole in the direction it needs to move until the proper alignment is achieved. This is the position where you will tighten the lower bolt when doing the final install of the starter.

6. Now you must check for depth of engagement of the starter pinion into the ring gear. Again, pry the pinion out to it's fully extended position using a screwdriver and check how far the pinion in engaged into the ring gear. Proper engagement is 2/3 to 3/4 into the thickness of the ring gear. It's likely to be too deep, which would cause drag on the starter and eventually burn it out. If too deep, you must shim the starter forward, toward the front of the engine. NAPA makes a starter alignment shim for a Ford starter, part number 655-1188 and it sells for $8. I expect that one should be enough, but they could be stacked if necessary.

7. With the starter and shim in place (if required) and the starter rotated to the position that it's bottom hole is elongated to, tighten everything. It's now aligned properly.

For those of you building from scratch, you have the choice of either the Lakewood bellhousing or the McLeod modular bellhousing. The McLeod was not available when I did my build, but the consensus on the Internet is that it is more precise than the Lakewood and it also has a knockout to facilitate different starter locations. I expect the starter will align differently using this bellhousing than with the Lakewood.

In my case, for about $100 I can fix the problem, which is much less expensive than I had feared. I hope that this long post will be of benefit both to those doing new builds, to do it right the first time, and to those, like me, that need to fix this aggravating problem in an older build. Either way, happy wrenching to all!

Chuck

[Tim Brewer]

I'm not sure about what your Summit starter really is,(i'm sure it's rebadged) but I had basically the same problem with my 1st mini starter. As I recall, for some reason, one particular starter was said to fit our (I have basically the same setup as you), application, but it was for an older Lakewood bell which seemed to change somewhere along the way without notice. It took a lot of calling, but ended up being a Powermaster XS Torque mini starter, part # pwm 9505. No problems, no shims or grinding. If your shims work, cool, but Fords really shouldn't need shims with the correct starter. The Powermaster starter is $217.00 and bolts right up.
Tim

[cwmcobra]

Tim,

I agree that Ford's shouldn't need shims for the starter. But, having had the problem, reading about many others that have had the same problem, and talked with many industry suppliers and engine builders, it seems that each build is a new adventure. It won't be hard to really look at this with the engine out of the car and I'm hopeful that it will be an easy fix. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks for the tip on the Powermaster starter. If what I have doesn't work well, that will be my next move.

Chuck

[Tom Wells]

Chuck,

Been through the starter-shimming exercise. It was one of the Nippondenso gear reduction units I bought as a "super starter" for the 460 that required a shim.

If it needs shimming and you don't catch it before you try it, there will be no doubt after you turn the key for the first time The thing will shriek like you wouldn't believe. Don't remember exactly, but it took somewhere around 0.040" or so to get it corrected.

Folks will say Fords don't use shims. Not entirely so: some aftermarket starters for the 460 DO require them.

All that said, my favorite starter - which I am currently using and very happy with - is the stock 1993 Ford F250 460 starter. I used the 460ford.com guys' suggestion and bought one. It looks anemic and is lighter weight than the others I tried, but it starts my car hot, cold or in between, without fail - something all the others (I tried a total of four different ones prior to this one) did not do.

Tom

[cwmcobra]

Tom,

I started with a mini starter from Ford Racing and it didn't need shimming. The problem with that one was that I didn't check alignment and it apparently was located too shallow into the teeth of the ring gear. Loaded the tips of the teeth during starting. It worked fine for about 2-3 years, then started making noise and I found the chipped teeth. Went to the Summit starter on the recommnedation of one of our Club Cobra faithful and it worked for a couple of years, even with the chipped teeth on the flywheel. Late last summer it once again started making noise. So, now I'm going to double check everything before reinstalling the engine to develop confidence that it's set up right.

By the way, I tried the F250 starter as well before going to the Summit Protorque, based on advice either on this forum or the 460 forum. Unfortunately, the frame rails on my West Coast are too close together and the OEM starter just wouldn't fit.

Chuck

[Tom Wells]

Chuck,

the OEM starter just wouldn't fit

Interesting. The one I have is the smallest of all the ones I tried. If I can find a part number, I'll post it.

Tom

[Jahred]

Interesting discussion. I'm stalled for a number of months now. Spring; time to get her going again. I am getting starter squeel. Is there a consensus here on 514/Lakewood combo? I got my starter from a local shop. I doubt it was for 176 tooth app. I also am concerned my problems could be from overtorqueing piston rods which I pulled after a long anti freeze episode. I torqued them 10 lbs over what it took to "break them" loose which in hindsight I am sure was 2- to 30 lbs over spec. Replacing ring gear in my mind would be an incredible task. If I need a shim, where does it go? Is there a consensus on the best starter for this combo? 514/Lakewood?

[cwmcobra]

Jahred,

According to Red Roberts at McLeod, the number of teeth on the flywheel is immaterial to the problem. There is less than 0.020" diffference in the OD of flywheels with ring gear teeth numbering 176 to 184 and the starter pinion doesn't really care how many teeth are on the flywheel, as long as they are in that range. His advice is to set the clearance between the ring gear and starter pinion as described above. If a shim is required, it goes between the mounting flange on the starter and the block plate or bellhousing. I bought a shim at NAPA for a Ford starter, but it might be too thick. I'm still waiting for my replacement ring gear before putting the drivetrain back together and setting the alignment properly.

Good luck with your engine!

Chuck

[Tom Wells]

Here's a nice dissertation about starters, shims, life, the universe and everything :

http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php...hlight=starter

I still like the 1995 F250 Ford unit.

Tom

[cwmcobra]

This link to the 460Ford forum has led to what I believe is truly the definitive fix. Robb at RobbMc Performance (http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products.html) is a wealth of informaition and through a week-long interaction, I believe we now understand the problem with the Lakewood bell/Ford Racing starter (and others) and how to fix it. Robb was genuinely interested to understand the reason for the misalignment so we can be confident in a fix. Bottom line is the problem is not with the Lakewood bell, it's with the starters that we've used. For those that can use a stock Ford OEM starter (not the Ford Racing part), it should work fine. I don't have space for the OEM to fit, so I've ordered one of Robb's mini-starters. After I receive it, check alignments and have some experience to report (after the engine goes back in the car) I'll report more.

Chuck

[Jahred]

Chuck, Tom - curious if you have a quick reaction here. Finally got around to pulling the starter I was having difficulty with. It was a fresh rebuild with a clean gear and when I pulled it there is a good solid 3/8 of an inch of gear worn on each of the starter gear teeth (3/8 accross legth of gear).

I picked up a shim, but will probably go with a different starter. From what I can see the shim sets the gear back so that it does not overlap accross the face or width of the flywheel gear as it ordinarily would. In other words, it is not adjusting the depth at which the starter gear teeth engage the teeth of the flywheel.

I'm confused as to why more overlap of the starter gear with flywheel is a bad thing. Also, are there conclusions that can be drawn from the 3/8 inch wear pattern? 514/Lakewood/Manual.

Tom, you've recommended the F-250 starter.....but I think you said you had an automatic - so that one would not fly for manual transmission, no?

Thanks in advance for any reaction.

[Tom Wells]

Jahred,

I'm not real good at diagnosing stuff like this without seeing the parts. Heck, I'm not real good at diagnosing....

The function of the shim, as I understand it, it is not to control the depth of engagement but to allow the starter teeth to retract away from the flywheel enough to completely disengage. If they don't completely disengage, metal will be ground away, usually with some considerable sound effects Don't ask me how I know this.

As to the auto/stick flywheel differences, I'd suggest you contact that starter vendor (or one similar) and ask that question.

With that much metal disturbed (if I'm visualizing the pinion gear's damage correctly) there may be some damage to the teeth on the flywheel. You may wish to inspect there before you try another starter.

Ouch!

Tom

[cwmcobra]

Jahred,

I'm also having some difficulty visualizing your wear pattern, but perhaps I can help with the right starter. I'm on a business trip in Asia now, but before I left I had a chance to "dry install" my flywheel and RobbMc starter and check clearances. I checked the mesh of the pinion with the ring gear, gap between the end of the pinion and the face of the flywheel and backlash of the pinion in the ring gear. All are within the specs recommended by Robb. Here's what I can tell you....assuming you are using the block plate with the Lakewood bell, the registration diameter in the block plate is in the correct place to locate the starter to the flywheel. What you need to look for is a starter with the pinion centered in the registration diameter. Most that I have found (including the Ford Racing mini starter) have at least some offset, which affects the radial alignment of the pinion to the ring gear. The stock Ford starters have the pinion centered in the registration diameter. So does the RobbMc starter. The other critical dimension is the gap between the end of the pinion and the flywheel face. When I ordered the starter from Robb, I did some dimensional checking and found that with my flywheel (Ford Racing made by McLeod) we had the starter assembled with a short pinion to maintain the correct gap. The Ford Racing flywheel has a recess machined on the side mounted to the crankshaft which locates the ring gear closer to the starter pinion. It sounds to me like you have too little gap in your setup and need to fix that. I highly recommend you visit Robb's website (www.robbmcperformance.com) and study his installation instructions for the Ford BB starter to get the recommended gap. His starter is a bit pricey, but well worth it in quality and confidence in fit and function. Oh, and by the way, his starter, like the stock Ford starters uses a 9-tooth pinion. The Summit starter I have uses an 11 tooth pinion and, surprisingly, the Ford Racing mini starter uses a 10-tooth gear.

Hope this helps. Even if you don't want to buy a starter from Robb, I suggest you use his installation instructions as a guide. Good luck!

Chuck

[cwmcobra]

I've assembled the RobbMc starter an checked clearances with the ring gear on the flywheel. It all checks out correctly. Here's the RobbMc starter:



Here's the gap between the flywheel face and the end of the starter pinion:



Finally, here's the tooth engagement of the starter pinion in the new ring gear:



See the paper clip in the picture. This confirms about 0.030" gap between the end of the pinion tooth and the root of the ring gear tooth. I also measured the backlash of the gear set to be about 0.035". According to Robb, these are all within expected ranges for proper pinion to ring gear engagement.

The engine is not back in the car yet. When it is, I'll post my comments on the function of the starter.

Chuck

[cwmcobra]

The engine is back in the Cobra and I've had numerous opportunities to use the new starter under various conditions. It's worked flawlessly. The solenoid location is infinitely variable and I rotated it around behind the starter body away from the heat of the headers. When it's started after a hot soak, it spins just like when it was cold. The only time it struggled was when I was experimenting with spark timing and got it a bit too far advanced. Right now I'm running 24 degrees initial advance, which is up from 16 that most recommend, and the starter seems to spin the motor with ease. Based on the detailed analysis that Robb did, working with me on identifying the potential sources of mismatch between the starter pinion and the flywheel ring gear, I'm totally confident that I won't have any more broken teeth on the flywheel. The RobbMc starter is a quality piece that functions very well. If you can make a stock Ford starter fit in your application, it should work fine as well, but if, like most of us, you have space constraints for starter installation, I can't recommend Robb's starter any higher.

I've attached a picture of the starter installed on the engine.



Chuck