[Fred Douglass]

........please see my reference (somewhere up in ThreadLand), re the Founding Fathers being "progressives". BS! Hoooey! They were Enlightenment philosophers----aka 18th century "liberals". In other words, "old school" liberals who had not one scintilla of comparability to contemporary big government junkies (what the hell did the misnamed American "Revolution" oppose?) and post-Marx socialista control-freaks. Jaysuss! TJ owned guns and slaves! He sure learned his lesson while scurrying out of France, eh? He LOATHED the very idea of a strong central government! Yes he was an idealist, and hence his war on the "Federalist Navy" reaped the reward of a toasted White House. Washington was no "liberal" nor a "progressive". He effectively stamped out rioting amongst whiskey distillers. Daniel Shays had more to do with producing a lust for strong governance than any Founder. A little reading of Edmund Burke re Watt Tyler and similar rumblings from England's lower classes is in order.

Ben Franklin knew that preserving a participatory republic was chancy at best. Remember his reply to some lady----".....if you can keep it?". Very few of the Founders trusted the common man to the extent that TJ did. Look what universal suffrage has gotten us. Wait 'til 50% of the public works for the government and/or 50% of the public derives its monetary sustenance from the "other" (working) half. Both seem to be coming. The politics of envy will destroy this republic, just as Ben Franklin predicted.

Most Enlightenment political pohilosophers knew there would have to be limits (they'd read Plato and Aristotle). The Fwoggies blew the whole scam, though----behind every utopian movement lies a murderous totalitarian bunch. Where has any huge societal revolt ever ended in anything but a blood-soaked regime? France, Russia, Germany, China, Cuba, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc.