Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZOR
To say the military, police, etc are examples of socialism is just bunk. What Political Science book did that come from? Our founding fathers studied men like John Locke, and Thomas Hobbs in writing the Constitution.Locke wrote of the "Natural State" and the need for social order,that men contract together to form a civil government,for civil peace and for national protection.Government then provides what an individual cannot, national defense, building highways, Jefferson quoted Locke, when he spoke of the "consent of the governed". So it is certainly not as you say "any form of democracy is essentially socialism", that simply is a ridiculous statement.Where in the world did you get your info on what socialism is? Give me some quotes or documentation.
Socialism is defined as a social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and the distribution of capital,land,etc in the community as a whole.
This country was not founded on socialism in anyway, shape or form. The military, and police are a matter of the social contract to bring about civil order and to protect the citizens of this nation. Where as the taking over of the banks, autos industry, and nationalizing health care is socialism. You simply have made up your own definition of socialism to make your argument.Try again.
The only way to control the cost of Nationalized healthcare is to ration it. Obama's plan does exactly that, so if its a scare tactic, we should be scared. One congressman came on today with the example that you must be 25 to be screened for Bladder cancer under Obamas plan, he had it when he was 19, under Obama's plan he is dead. So much for compassion.
Karl Marx, said "take away the heritage of a people and they are easy led", Those following Obamas plan certainly do not know our heritage.
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Razor,
I have to agree with Jamo. The above is well written and carefully thought out.
You made me read about John Locke and Thomas Hobbs and their influence on the constitution. This is like college.
"To say the military, police, etc are examples of socialism is just bunk. What Political Science book did that come from?"
Bunk? Book?
I suspect we disagree on just what socialism is or rather how it applies. Note, I did earlier include a FreeDictionary definition link to
socialism, as I mentioned the very term, "socialism" has taken on a sinister meaning: (Unfairly, I think).
so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
The word, socialism, has been associated with evil for so long, it is taken to officially mean evil. Yet there is nothing wrong with being social as opposed to being anti-social. One is warm and fuzzy; the other cold and foreboding.
You said, "You simply have made up your own definition of socialism to make your argument.Try again."
Well. Yes ...I did make my own brand-new definition. I offer that "social contracting", as you call it, and the building blocks of socialism are "essentially" the same thing. And I offer it as
logical original thinking, much the way Locke and Hobbs formed their opinions and offered their personal conclusions.
So unless I write a book about it, there is nothing to quote and this is documentation, self-evident logic, right here and now. All the building blocks of socialism naturally stem eons before Locke and Hobbs from the limbic area of the warm blooded brain that governs that mammals will care for their young ...and logically extend it to include neighbors like family. The root of compassion and human behavior. The basis of all social politics. Conversely capitalism stems from preying on, and out-surviving, critters not in the family. Not that there is anything wrong with that basic instinct either. Now I have tried again.
"...Government then provides what an individual cannot, national defense, building highways... ...The military, and police are a matter of the social contract to bring about civil order and to protect the citizens of this nation..." All these are socialist public protection industries. So is National Health Care a public protection industry, not necessarily Obama's plan. You said,
"Karl Marx, said 'take away the heritage of a people and they are easy led', Those following Obamas plan certainly do not know our heritage." Let the reader go back to even earlier heritage than America ...and think for themselves as did Locke and Hobbs. Let the reader question everything he has read or been told.
And I expect that severe regulation in "
the taking over of the banks, autos industry" is necessary when banks and the auto industry severely harms the public. How much regulation, how much government interference, is the same as national ownership? Beats me, but it's way more than "any". Not just Obama, but Bush and McCain knew that too.
It is my understanding that the original hope for the Colonies was to be independent from England and remarkably do so without any formal government or taxes. It did not take long before the cost of war caused the need for some government and some taxes. The second that representatives voted, they created the first form of socialism in a government mandated social-welfare common-cause. It wouldn't of had to be that way. Each settlement could have had their own army, or better yet, each settler could have been totally unsocialized and entirely self-reliant and fought independently. But that wouldn't have worked too well. So there we have the start of the minimal necessity of both democracy and socialism (they go together),
the government owned army. So everybody could pursue their capital enterprise in safety. Safety in numbers. Social numbers. America is a mix, right from the beginning. Have no fear.
Wes
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