[Jamo]

Folks don't want to hear this, choosing instead to rely on attention seeking politicians and talking heads, but the facts are far different than what is commonly believed.

Few of you deal directly with illegal workforces...the following is based on California agriculture...every segment and area.

In the old days, illegals generally worked off the clock and got paid in cash, etc. How would I know? That's how we paid them on our farm, until the green cars would park next to the field or vineyard and folks would start running. There were no employer sanctions back then (60s). While working off the clock still occurs, it is a small percentage due to IRCA/I-9 requirements for employers, and is usualy done by urbanites picking up day laborers on street corners (which is why they presume farmers and contractors do the same thing...they don't). Thus, most illegals use fraudulent documents and are paid via the payroll system. As such, they have income taxes and mandated benefit premiums deducted like everyone else.

Because their work is seasonal in agriculture, their deductions far exceed what their taxes would actually be. However, because they are illegal, few file income tax returns, so most of the money stays with the government. This is never calculated in comparison to the costs of illegals because it is impossible to presume who is legal and who isn't. So when you cite numbers as to what illegals cost, you are relying on half-assed information. Not your fault...the government can't track illegal income through taxes and unrefunded amounts.

The larger agricultural operations provide health benefits; the smaller ones do not...in about the same percentages as any other industry according to chamber of commerce surveys.

Minimum pay is $8 per hour in California...most agricultural employees who work in fruits and vegetables earn $9.50 or more for cultural work, and upwards of $12-16 per hour for piece-rate work such as pruning or harvesting.

Agricultural groups here in the San Joaquin Valley offered round trip transportation and living accomodations for Katrina victims to come and work during the summers following the devastation...27 folks took up the offer.

Will U.S citizens work in the fields...even for more money? You all make bold statements that they will, but offer no proof. The fact is, even unionized ag companies, with even higher rates, the best medical plans and retirement benefits, have had labor shortages for the past 15 years that the labor organizations have kept track of it. When employers secure guest workers, which includes round trip transportation, living accomodations and healthcare, they have to offer exactly the same to citizens for several months before the seasons start. It is rare to have any citizens take the offers.

Why? The work is damn hard and it is seasonal. How would I know? I grew up in it. Now, most urbanites who have no clue how their food ends up at their local markets, usually stick their feet in their mouths about now, suggesting ignorant concepts and ideas without having even a minimum amount of information from which to make such assinie suggestions...those posts will follow this.

Of all the folks that frequent the Lounge, I know of only one person who would understand what I'm saying, and that's Scott...merely because his industry is affected in much the same way as agriculture. There may be a few of you who post less frequently about the subject who also have experience. Posting one new newspaper account of one incident is not "experience."

I am not pro-illegal (not by a longshot), but I really can't stand stupid-assed remarks based on wrong information. I would prefer we have secure borders and that we not offer blanket amnesty. As others have said, it did not work in the 80s, and most folks who secured citizenship through that plan had been brought here (by us) through the bracero program in the 50s and had lived here for decades...they are generally not in favor of any new amnesty plan either for folks who have been here for only a few years.

I do think we need fast-track processing of applications for the illegals that are here...for you morons, read that again: I said processing. I do not believe we should drop the standards one bit. However, we need to set a two or three year period for folks to apply and get the determinations made within that timespan instead of the 4-5 year current wait. If they qualify, great; if not...goodbye.

We also need more efficient guest worker procedures...along with TVA-style unemployment department enforced work for benefits. If someone wants unemployment and there is a job available...they have to take the job and receive only the difference in benefits between what they were paid in a job they lost versus what the job pays. Otherwise, no benefits.

We need to change the law (at the federal level) allowing children who are born here to illegals to automatically be citizens. We cannot make make this ex post facto as it would violate the Constitution...but going forward, it would be Constitutional.

We need to increase enforcement at the employer level and at the neighborhood level...Obama recently pulled back on the latter. Did anybody here know that, by the way? Any of you ever deal with an ICE audit...or do you just read about them? Do any of you know what the current status quo is concerning Social Security Mis-Matches? Do you know whether an employer can fire an employe because their Social Security number does not match their name? Do you know whether an employer can fire someone because several other employees swear he or she is illegal...or whether you can even contact DHS to verify? Do you know what e-verify is?

Nevermind...lost cause.