Oil change and other changes

[JCoop]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You might be right on that -- they call it "system capacity" and they've changed their site so I can't find the PDF that they used to have entitled "How to Mark Your Dipstick."

Mine takes 7, plus 3 in the pre-oiler...you can see the welded extra capacity there on the LH side of pic.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by JCoop

Mine takes 7, plus 3 in the pre-oiler...you can see the welded extra capacity there on the LH side of pic.

Yes, that must be right. Gunner has the same components that I do and I know that when I change my oil I need 9 quart bottles. The last bottle tends to be about half full when I'm done. That would add up to to 1 quart in the filter, 7 quarts in the pan, and the remaining half quart evenly distributed in the lines, on the driveway, and down the side of the valve cover.

[patrickt]

... a medley of some of my favorite FE oil pressure quotes:

[392cobra]

I have a 9 qt. Canton.The paperwork that came with it stated to put 8 qts. in the pan then mark/calibrate the dip stick to read Full.

It said this on their site but I can't find it on there now.

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...ion&key=15-680

[Gunner]

Okay, ground truth:

I drained exactly two quarts and set the car back on its wheels. Stick read exactly one quart down. I put one quart back in and waited; stick still read a little low. Ran the engine for a minute, let it sit for 10. Stick read at the low SAFE line. Put in half a quart more, ran engine a bit, waited - Stick reads exactly one-third into the SAFE range.

So yes, my engine does take 10+ quarts on a change, and as nearly as I can tell, the dipstick is reading accurately. (I would ass/u/me that Joe Lapine would provide the right stick, and that its reading in the SAFE zone all this time while showing no signs of oil problem indicates that the SAFE level is correctly spec'ed.)

I'm going to drive it a bit and check again, then bring the oil up a little higher in the SAFE range before I dump the rest in recycle. And next time I'll remember that and wait before I put in the last quart.

Then I have to tackle this fraggin' fuel drip from the pump... *sigh*.

[patrickt]

Joe has been known to occasionally make a mistake. Look to the right of the drain plug on the oil plan, clean it off maybe, and see if he inscribed a part number, like 820 or such. If it is indeed a Canton 15-820, and remembering that a dipstick only measures what's in the oil pan, not the system, then only 7 quarts should be put in the oil pan -- regardless of what the stick says.

[RodKnock]

I know Gunner is not me, I'm a doo-fuss, but if it were me, I would start again from the beginning. Dipsticks can be wrong and engine builders aren't perfect. Shouldn't the part number of the Canton pan be on the pan? What about a pic and Patrick or one of the other guys can figure out which one it is.

I will be embarking on my first solo oil change soon (if I ever get the time), but I know I have the Aviaid 9-quart pan plus one in the filter. So my car will get 10 quarts and then I will see what the dipstick reads.

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I know Gunner is not me, I'm a doo-fuss, but if it were me, I would start again from the beginning. Dipsticks can be wrong and engine builders aren't perfect. Shouldn't the part number of the Canton pan be on the pan? What about a pic and Patrick or one of the other guys can figure out which one it is.

I will be embarking on my first solo oil change soon (if I ever get the time), but I know I have the Aviaid 9-quart pan plus one in the filter. So my car will get 10 quarts and then I will see what the dipstick reads.

Might want to go with 9 quarts, then see where you're at.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I know Gunner is not me, I'm a doo-fuss, but if it were me, I would start again from the beginning. Dipsticks can be wrong and engine builders aren't perfect. Shouldn't the part number of the Canton pan be on the pan? What about a pic and Patrick or one of the other guys can figure out which one it is.

Uhh, that makes waayyy too much sense. I checked the spec sheet that Prestige Motor Car had on Gunner's car and it does not specifically say what the make of the oil pan is. But, if it's the same as mine, there ain't no way you can jam 9 quarts in there... safely, that is. Here are some pictures I set up a while ago having to do with the ribs on the side of my block, but you can clearly see my Canton 15-820 in it. It's an easy pan to identify, and no, it doesn't have a part number on it, but Joe will sometimes etch the number next to the plug (he did on mine). Click here for the shots: Pics of Block and Pan

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I know Gunner is not me, I'm a doo-fuss, but if it were me, I would start again from the beginning.

If I had the slightest question about it, I would.

The engine had an oil level within the SAFE mark on the dipstick when I got it - this is 5700 miles from new.

In 500 miles, the oil level stayed at that same mark, with no indication of low oil issues, high oil issues, or any other issues except that (as the original owner confirmed) it was near impossible to get the oil past about 70*.

In my haste, I put one quart too many in. The dipstick read exactly what I would expect for being one quart high. I've taken that quart back out (in stages; see above). The oil level is now right where it was before, in the lower middle of the SAFE zone. I agree that it's odd that the engine took so much oil, but there's not the slightest sign that there's anything at fault - at least, nothing more than was at fault all along with no ill effects.

I agree that the unusual oil heating was probably due to that extra quart being slopped up around the base of the cylinders. If the engine didn't show that behavior with the oil level where it is now, then I don't think the level can be excessive. Nor have I ever seen the pressure falloff that would come from foaming the oil up.

Heaven knows I will do the next change with ridiculous care and a full calibration. But as the engine has shown NO signs of distress with the oil at this level in 6200 miles, I'm not going to change anything this time around.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Joe has been known to occasionally make a mistake. Look to the right of the drain plug on the oil plan, clean it off maybe, and see if he inscribed a part number, like 820 or such. If it is indeed a Canton 15-820, and remembering that a dipstick only measures what's in the oil pan, not the system, then only 7 quarts should be put in the oil pan -- regardless of what the stick says.

Gunner-this is not euclidean geometry ()-Pat is being kind here when he says Joe has been known to make a mistake -you'd be a hoople to believe otherwise or you don't know him. If he ran your engine when he built it for Owner #1, he knew how much to put in it. Then he drains it to ship. He put in what ever dipstick it came with or was on his shelf. Marks like 'add', 'safe', 'full', 'add', 'low', 'oh-oh', only apply to whatever passenger car the stick was in on day one. T-shaped, trap door race pans need calibration beyond 'it was in a '67 T-bird'. If he didn't run it, it went out dry and O #1 began the myth of 11 qts.

Because a pan has a capacity of 9 qts does not mean it should be run at that capacity.

Only dry sump systems want 11+ qts because the oil's in a tank- not 2 inches from 6000+RPM. Persist in treating it like a 24 hour endurance race engine and you'll push oil out of gaskets and seals. To say nothing of the power loss dragging the crank through it. 11 is surely above the tray as Pat said. You're only thinking about flat level ground-where does oil that's above the trap doors and cheeks go on a .9G turn? Answer: to expensive places.

The foolproof way to not hurt you motor is to measure. To do that, remove the pan, clean to perfection, then add seven qts of water or cool-aid and measure the distance from the fluid to the pan rail top edge. Then, with it mounted in the block, measure the hanging length of the dipstick from the block rail to what ever the fluid level of seven is in the pan. Re-mark the stick with a file and that's your correct fill level. File off the other BS marks-now you have a stick that's matched to the pan's correct operating level.Add the following: Your filter will hold .75Qt (Mobil1, 301) and lines on an ERA hold at most .5qt.

That's all the oil your 446 needs, whether on parade, autocross, road race or drag race duty, 4000 or 8000RPM. If your too lazy to do that-take the advice of several of us who have the same setup (and have told you repeatedly) and just don't crazy fill past 7.

Rod, this applies to you too-Aviad=10 qts is what the pan will hold-NOT what it should be dynamically run at. Engine displacement has no dire requirement for over-filled oil sumps.

There's no hero value in telling the sheep 'yeah, that's an 11 qt. pan in there!'

[RodKnock]

In my case, and I apologize for stealing Gunner's thread, this is my first SOLO oil change. The oil has been changed several times already by two people. The engine builder, AT MY HOME, and Hall Fabrication, the shop where my engine and tranny (and a bunch of other work) were installed.

I plan to do what Doug (Got The Bug) said and fill it with 9 quarts, check it, then add whatever it needs depending on what the dipstick tells me. The dipstick has been "audited" and quantities have been verified.

First, I must find the time.

[RodKnock]

Chas, I think you're 100% absolutely right, but even if my true system capacity was not known, I think you're method is way too much/difficult for the "Oil Change For Dumbies" type person that I am.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Chas, I think you're 100% absolutely right, but even if my true system capacity was not known, I think you're method is way too much/difficult for the "Oil Change For Dumbies" type person that I am.

I don't know about that. I can see your post now: "So here I am on my first oil change on the Cobra, and after removing all the oil pan bolts, I had some trouble breaking the RTV seal between the pan, gasket, windage tray, gasket, and block. Any tips on how to make these oil changes easier?"

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I don't know about that. I can see your post now: "So here I am on my first oil change on the Cobra, and after removing all the oil pan bolts, I had some trouble breaking the RTV seal between the pan, gasket, windage tray, gasket, and block. Any tips on how to make these oil changes easier?"

Actually, I thought it would faster and easier to loosen and remove all those bolts thingees on the side of my CSX block near the oil pan first, then begin the final procedures as outlined above.

Chas, 7 quarts? The Aviaid pan hold 9 quarts.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Chas, 7 quarts? The Aviaid pan hold 9 quarts.

My whole point was that because a vessel's capacity may be X, does not mean it's best for the engine (which is dynamically in many different positions other than flat and level) to run at that capacity.

I know by measurement that my 8 qt Canton runs best at 7 (in the pan, static) with nearly an inch gap to the tray. With 1.75 qt in rest of the system, the sump does not pump itself dry. Pat, speaking for myself, my Shelby heads and the block's valley do NOT hold a ton of oil. Attention to the oil drains on assembly assured that.

Ray runs a 460, 385 with at least an 8 or 9 qt capacity pan with no ill effect with 7 in the pan and at least 4 in the whole system.

There's just no need to run so much excess oil IN THE PAN. And since you asked the question and described your situation, Pat, Doug, John, Fred, Ray and myself have told you that there's a better, safer way.

Your engine has no greater oil requirement than a rebuilt 390-Joe builds 70% of his ERA-based FE's that way.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Chas, I think you're 100% absolutely right, but even if my true system capacity was not known, I think you're method is way too much/difficult for the "Oil Change For Dumbies" type person that I am.

Rod,

You may not be conversant with Euclid as Pat and I is but you're a pretty bright guy- just fill to seven, your cooler and lines are already full and just add .75 to your filter.

Use a new crush washer on your drain plug and don't overtighten. You be good den.

Errata:
In my above rant I neglected to mention Gunner's cooler holds .5qt whch means his (and most of ours) system will be at near 9 qts.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Use a new crush washer on your drain plug and don't overtighten. You be good den.

Rod, you should try and use the premium "orange crush washers" pictured below.

[ERA Chas]

We rely on Pat for his highly technical visual aids which benefit-
school children.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

We rely on Pat for his highly technical visual aids which benefit school children.

Uhhh, would that be knee-high school children? Get it? Nehi.