TKO 600 Grinding.

[jhv48]

We used a pilot bushing puller.

No grease was used for either installation or removal of the first two pilot bushings.

[CobraEd]

I was confused, . . . I meant respond to Excaliber. I was refering to how to lube the bearing.


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[Excaliber]

Now I might use what ever grease I have on hand just to aid the input shaft into position upon initial installation. But a pilot bushing is, or should be, oil impregnated metal, "oilite", a material that is self lubricating and generally does not require the addition of grease or oil to perform it's task for the life of the bushing.

To remove one you could use a puller, or pack the opening with grease and then ram an input shaft in the hole to "hydraulic action" force the bushing out. You could also use toilet paper and water, instead of grease, to hydraulic the bushing out.

Just seems odd that someone would recommened grease on a pilot shaft bearing as a long term solution.

[jhv48]

Well, the fix lasted about 60 miles.

Shifted beautifully for one day. Then the grinding in reverse and the hard to put into first gear at a stop returned.

I give up! Going to drive it till something either seizes or breaks.

Disconnected the neutral safety switch and will start it in reverse from now on.

[Anthony]

Well, as you know, something is hanging up on the clutch or input shaft that keeps the tranny rotating with the clutch "disengaged".

If you have an external slave cylinder, adjust the throw-out rod off the slave cylinder to where it just begins to apply pressure on the throw-out bearing, and then back it off maybe 1/2 - 1 revolution, to get maximum clutch disengagement.

Place 4 equal thickness washers/spacers between the tranny and bell housing, to pull the tranny out a little, to determine if there is any pressure on the end of the input shaft. If this fixes it, then you will need to pull the tranny and grind down the input snout a little.

Interesting problem. Could be worse.

[cdnus]

Don't recall if anyone mentioned the clutch disc may be hanging/binding on the transmission spline?
I always spray the spline with a dry graphite liberally then work the disc by hand back & forth over the spline before installation to check for drag, then respray the spline before installing.
I would think with all the miles you have on the clutch this would not be a problem, but you never know.

Craig

[lovehamr]

Just as an aside to this, it isn't necessary to use grease to hydo the bushing out. Now this is a no **** moment but I tried it and it does work without the grease mess. Use wet tissue or toilet paper. Yeah that stuff can go all over to but it's a hell of a lot easier to clean up than grease!

Steve

[jhv48]

Anthony, you are reading my mind.

I have ordered a custom 1/8 inch aluminum spacer from Mike Forte to install between the bellhousing and the tranny. It has an opening in the side so you don't have to remove the tranny to install it. Just remove the four bolts and the rear mount and slide the tranny back an inch or so. Then slide the spacer in and turn it to line up with the bolt holes. Thought about going the washer routine, but was afraid that with only four points supporting the trans, I might bend or break something.

So, I have to wait two weeks for the spacer to be made and then will slide it in and report back. I also think that the bushing should have been put in absolutely dry. The high temp bearing grease that was used probably coked in the first hundred miles and is now causing the drag.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by jhv48

. Thought about going the washer routine, but was afraid that with only four points supporting the trans, I might bend or break something..

Well, I didn't mean to go drag racing, just maybe drive it gingerly around a bit.

I actually grounded down the snout on my toploader with the tranny assembled, taping around the input spline to prevent shavings from entering the tranny. First cut it off with a die grinder cut off wheel, then ground tapered the edges to slide in the pilot bushing/bearing

Originally Posted by jhv48

. I also think that the bushing should have been put in absolutely dry. The high temp bearing grease that was used probably coked in the first hundred miles and is now causing the drag.

I don't know. With the clutch engaged, the spline of the tranny is rotating the same speed as the flywheel, so there is no speed differential. It only occurs when you have the clutch disengaged, i.e. clutch pedal pushed in. There would be no friction when just cruising around in gear. Now, revving the engine while in gear, at a stop, will cause speed differential.

[Excaliber]

Virtually ALL standard transmission cars will grind in reverse if you shift there without hesitating after you put the clutch in. I shift into 4th first, THEN into reverse, it never grinds that way. Of course the reason is, reverse doesn't utilize synchro's like the forward gears do.

Old VW, Austin Healeys, MG's and many many other cars grind in first (and reverse) for the same reason, no synchro's on that gear. You have to put the clutch in and WAIT for the trans gears to stop spinning if you don't want the grind.

[67FEfastback]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Virtually ALL standard transmission cars will grind in reverse if you shift there without hesitating after you put the clutch in. I shift into 4th first, THEN into reverse, it never grinds that way. Of course the reason is, reverse doesn't utilize synchro's like the forward gears do.
...

Thanks, that helps me.

Now does someone know where I can get a proper connector for the TKO neutral safety start pins? The ones that I have on there, usually act up after 3-4 months, especially when the engine gets hot. I then have to pop the hood and jumper the pins on the harness.

It looks like it should have a round connector with two pin push-on harness, with a beveled plastic ridge to snap on to the transmission.

[Excaliber]

Brent, of course 5th would seem to be the ideal gear before choosing reverse, but I've found that to often 5th may be hard to shift into while sitting. It depends on where the gears have to come to rest. As opposed to 4th, which WILL go in smooth every time. 4th does seem a little ackward at first, but I don't even think about it anymore. 4th, then reverse, it's almost natural, because I don't want to wait for the gears to stop turning (I hate to wait).

Jim (jhv) if it grinds in reverse at ANY time AFTER you either: 1. waited (long enough) for the gears to stop spinning OR 2. shifted into 4th or 5th to stop them from spinning then there is only one other possible cause; The clutch and/or pilot bearing are not fully releasing the trans input shaft and the gears are still turning.

The only reason you don't sense the clutch and/or pilot bearing not fully releasing when you shift into 1st or any other gear is because of the synchromesh on those gears. They will "mask" the slight turning of the gears, where reverse won't.

Does not matter if it's only occasionally, the fact remains, "occasionally" the clutch and/or pilot bearing are not releasing. No way is this a fault of the transmission itself, by the way...

[blykins]

Yep, exactly.

If you shove the clutch in and give the transmission enough time to stop turning, then go to reverse.....if it still grinds it simply means the transmission can't stop turning.

[Wild Card 289]

My 3000 mile TKO600 5 speed does the same. Sometimes its good, sometimes it grinds. Hot and cold. Tried all the pre-selecting of forward gears, and never know what I will get. The fact that it sometimes selects reverse smoothly makes it all the more confusing. I´ve tried pumping the clutch several times to see to let the release bearing get a different take on the clutch fingers, but with no success either.
And it often makes you look like you can´t operate a stick shift just when you least need it!

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by Wild Card 289

My 3000 mile TKO600 5 speed does the same. Sometimes its good, sometimes it grinds. Hot and cold. Tried all the pre-selecting of forward gears, and never know what I will get. The fact that it sometimes selects reverse smoothly makes it all the more confusing. I´ve tried pumping the clutch several times to see to let the release bearing get a different take on the clutch fingers, but with no success either.
And it often makes you look like you can´t operate a stick shift just when you least need it!

That's mine in a nutshell.

Drove it 60 miles to the installer to pull the trans for a fourth time. Got there, he jumps in the car and slips the trans smoothly into reverse. Makes me look like an idiot. Over and over he slips it in and out of reverse without a sign of a grind. I looked at him and said f--k it! I'll bring it back when something breaks!

[iwantacobra427]

Originally Posted by jhv48

That's mine in a nutshell.

Drove it 60 miles to the installer to pull the trans for a fourth time. Got there, he jumps in the car and slips the trans smoothly into reverse. Makes me look like an idiot. Over and over he slips it in and out of reverse without a sign of a grind. I looked at him and said f--k it! I'll bring it back when something breaks!

Try shifting into third or second before shifting into reverse. If that doesn't help and you're running a hydraulic clutch.. I'd trying bleeding it..

[mdross1]

My TKO went through the same headache for a while,it was the clutch adjustment that took care of it.Every once in a while needed to shift into first then reverse to prevent a grind.99% of the time it's Okay.

[Excaliber]

Jim, do you know if your running a bronze pilot bushing? That and/or the clutch plate not fully releasing is what this boils down to. Something is causing drag on the input shaft of the trans. I suspect a bearing would tolerate misalignment of the bell housing more than a bushing would.

What other causes might come into play when the clutch disc does not always fully disengage? Warped disc? Insuffcient tavel with the master cylinder? Possible air bubble in the master/slave cylinders not allowing for enough travel of the throw out bearing? Not getting a full stroke on the master cylinder because of occasional internal leakage of the hydraulic pressure from the master or slave at times? I wonder if slowly vs fast engagement of the clutch pedal may be a factor in regards to internal leaking of hydraulic pressure? Pumping the clutch pedal is a good diagnostic procedure, assuming enough "time" is given to allow the gears to stop following said pumping action. Slight misalignment of the bell housing causing the pilot bushing to "rub" sideways on the input shaft? I would rule out the pressure plate (cover plate) itself, mostly because I can't think of a way the levers and springs would fail to release consistently. How about the throw out bearing release arm "pivoting" or moving at an angle at certain times and thus not giving full travel to the throw out bearing?

As has been noted, correct clutch adjustment, which allows for a FULL stroke of the slave cylinder is step #1. If full stroke only allows for a minimum of pressure plate disengagement that would certainly be a problem. "Almost releasing" would account for sometimes it grinds and sometimes it doesn't. A full stroke must be verified.

Looking for repairs to the trans itself is a red herring (related, but misleading, not the real cause), I do believe. The simple fact is this could (and has) happened to top loaders, T5's, GM trans, any manual trans on the market. In that regard there is nothing special about a TKO.

[Excaliber]

From the Google, this might say it better than my lame attempt:

RELEASE PROBLEMS

If the clutch does not release completely when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the disc will continue to turn the input shaft. This may prevent the driver from shifting the transmission from neutral into gear, cause grinding when the gears are changed, or cause the engine to stall when coming to a stop.
A clutch that won't release may have a misadjusted linkage, a broken or stretched release cable, a leaky or defective slave or master clutch cylinder, air in the hydraulic line or cylinders, corroded, damaged or improperly lubricated input shaft splines, a worn pilot bearing/bushing, a worn bearing retainer, bent or worn release fork or pivot ball, bent clutch drive straps, bent or distorted clutch disc, a clutch disc that was installed backwards, or mismatched clutch components (if the clutch was just replaced).
Other things that can cause the clutch to drag or not release include heavy gear oil in the transmission that's too thick for cold weather, defective or worn clutch pedal bushings or brackets, or flexing in the firewall or any release component attachment point.

[jhv48]

Clutch mechanism has been checked out from one end to the other. It doesn't drag, nothing is warped or damaged. The clutch is completely disengaged when the trans is grinding away. Verified by puting the car on the rack, (engine running) with one guy in the driver's seat and one under the car watching the clutch disengage. With the pedal fully depressed, the rear wheels do not turn, and can be turned by hand in the opposite direction.