Performance Engineering

[mreid]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Hey Keith Craft, Roush, Vintage, Ford, GM, Porsche take this thread as a warning, you have to please everyone even the ones that never gave you a dime if not your just a pos!!!!

Have you been drinking?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Hey Keith Craft, Roush, Vintage, Ford, GM, Porsche take this thread as a warning, you have to please everyone even the ones that never gave you a dime if not your just a pos!!!!

Seems in post #1, PE not only built the 460, but installed if for the owner, so the owner more than likely gave him plenty of dimes at the time!!!!!!!!!
After the engine went toast (can't blame PE for a broken oil pump pickup and I didn't see anyone blame him for that) PE offered to fix the problem and did, it lasted all of ONE MILE...I think one could/would expect a "little more" mileage out of that engine!!!!!!!!! Don't you??????

David

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

PE offered to fix the problem and did, it lasted all of ONE MILE...I think one could/would expect a "little more" mileage out of that engine!!!!!!!!! Don't you??????

Actually David that's what shocked me the most about the story, I can't believe that PE offered to fix it in the first place. How would this be thread read if PE had just said:

"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."

Which is the response that I would expect to get, were I in a similar situation and none of that other stuff would've happened.

Steve

[Blittleton]

Steve,

Well said..... I think Eric should have approached this in that business manner. He would have been better off. I know I didn't get any more help out of Ford with my bastard F350 with less than a month out of warrranty. Cost me 3500.00 out of my pocket, with known issues. I didn't like it and I wished that they would have help a little but they didn't budge on the their warranty.

As a business owner, we all know that if we do fix or replace everything all the time in warranty and out of warranty, we couldn't charge you the customer enough. Next time you want a car or an engine or any item and you want the best price. Maybe we shouldn't give a warranty... hmmm maybe I'm on to something!!!!

Bill

[DAVID GAGNARD]

[QUOTEActually David that's what shocked me the most about the story, I can't believe that PE offered to fix it in the first place. How would this be thread read if PE had just said:

"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."

Which is the response that I would expect to get, were I in a similar situation and none of that other stuff would've happened.

Steve
][/quote]

I agree 100%,but,PE decided to fix the engine,regardless of what happened and who,if anyone was to blame for the damage (he gets a +1 for that), the problem I see,is after the engine was repaired/rebuilt,it failed in ONE MILE (he gets a -1 for that), not quite what one would expect....then it went south from there..........

[QUOTE"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."
][/quote]
This would have been my exact responce from the begining and no one could fault PE had he said this........

David

[doug cords]

Things mechanical? How were they operated and maintained, under what circumstances? After three years and 7,000 miles, lots can occur that are not necessarily attritubable to Performance Engineering.
We can just speak to our experience with Eric and Jen Hinderberger with our 2008 build of a small block Ford. They were honest, responsive, professional and very helpful. They were responsive to our questions and 100% up-front with what they were supplying. We would do business with them - again - in a heartbeat.

[mdross1]

Reading these threads reminds of when I did a lot of work on the side,99.9% of all people I did work for loved my perfectionism and attention to detail.Then came that day when doing a job on a dirt bike for a friends teenage son (a wild kid at that).The bike had been literally beat into the ground.All I was to do was rebuild the two stroke motor,discovering how bad the rest of the bike was told the Dad he said make it safe.The kid complained about the bill then again literally beat the bike into the weeds.When it failed again the Dad wondered why.For me it was nearing the end doing work for people.Some you will never please.
There will always be two sides to every story,without knowing all the facts a judgement cannot be passed down.
In the end found it much more satisfying to do all my own work.Only people to blame then are the ones doing the work or parts breakage.Remember all things mechanical will breakdown.Good Luck with your 460 it is a great Cobra motor

[Silverback51]

Here is the way I look at these types of things.

I wasn't there, wasn't involved, so therefore I cannot pass judgement.

[mreid]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Here is the way I look at these types of things.

I wasn't there, wasn't involved, so therefore I cannot pass judgement.

This is probably the best post in this thread. As I said earlier, we will probably never know the root cause of the issue and we as a forum will never really know the extent of the conversations and commitments between Eric and Chris.

Anyone who ventures into business will have some complaints. It wasn't that long ago that T&L engines was taking a real beating. 99% of the comments I read were negative on several forums I frequent, yet 99.9% of their engines were great. I know many people who bought one and were completely satisfied. It is tough on a business given human nature is to complain when something goes wrong, but to remain silent when it goes right.

None of this is meant to say that Chris doesn't have a problem with PE. In fact it may be unfortunate for Eric that this thread and the broken valve train thread are happening at the same time. Although I do believe that this thread got new attention after a link was posted in the broken valve train thread.

The only advise I have left is for Eric. How you handle this issue and the one in the other thread will, right or wrong, affect how the majority of people think and talk about your company. That does not mean giving in on every issue. What it means is taking responsibility where it is yours and following through on any commitments made. At this point I would also finish the conversations in this thread. If you walk away now, the only voices will be those of Chris and your supporters. The rest of us will be left with a big question mark. That's not a good thing.

[kayakjack]

Originally Posted by mreid

The only advise I have left is for Eric. How you handle this issue and the one in the other thread will, right or wrong, affect how the majority of people think and talk about your company. That does not mean giving in on every issue. What it means is taking responsibility where it is yours and following through on any commitments made. At this point I would also finish the conversations in this thread. If you walk away now, the only voices will be those of Chris and your supporters. The rest of us will be left with a big question mark. That's not a good thing.

I agree.

This is why I asked Eric (in post #25) to respond to the money issues. The mechanical issues are sometimes hard to understand. I understand money.

If Eric elects to ignore this issue, we are left to form our conclusions without his input. That is not good for Eric.

If he says he never promises Chris money, we have a he said/she said.

If he promised Chris money and then stiffarmed him, goodbye.

Jack

[joyridin']

I'm not going to comment on PE, but I will say this. If you buy a NEW car from a dealership, how long do you expect it to last regardless of how you take care of it?

If it only went 7k miles before the engine took a hike, would you be take it back to the dealer or say oh well?

Unless this was a full blown race engine, or the guy raced it all the time and the engine wasn't built for that purpose, then I believe ANY of us would expect it to last a LONG time. Stuff happens we all know. The key is how it is handled by the seller.

[vatdevil]

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

[CBattaglia]

Originally Posted by vatdevil

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

But he didnt....! THAT is where the problem lies my friend. He Could have saved me 30 hours of trailering my car around and the cost involved.

And you are right who ever heard of a pick up tube breaking on one of these cars. You ever see the gauge of that metal? At this point I even question that. Rememver I only had 7000 miles on the motor.

[blykins]

The metal on the pickup itself doesn't fail....they usually fail around the welds, or if there's a mounting tab on it (in the case of a rear sump pan), they will sometimes fail there. It's not terribly uncommon for the welds to crack.

In a Cobra application where the pans are mostly front sump and the pickups are very short, I would think there would be less of a chance, but certainly not unheard of.

[BBQCYCLEWERKES]

Was the oil pan damaged? Did the pan bottom out on the track? You were tracking the vehicle when the oil pick up broke. I've seen that happen if the pickup screen is very close to the bottom of the pan and you bottom out the pan. It will then bend or even break the pickup tube from the welds.

[CBattaglia]

Originally Posted by BBQCYCLEWERKES

Was the oil pan damaged? Did the pan bottom out on the track? You were tracking the vehicle when the oil pick up broke. I've seen that happen if the pickup screen is very close to the bottom of the pan and you bottom out the pan. It will then bend or even break the pickup tube from the welds.

No, never bottomed out. and the track thing... Ya I wanted to go fast sure, that was my intention. but it was the first session of the day and I had to start dead last because of the lead follow situation. The car quit on lap 4. I get the track excuse and understand it completely. But in this case it truly had nothing to do with what happened here.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by vatdevil

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

I have, I've personally seen 2 others in 460's, both were full blown race cars thought and rear sumps.......Best guess was the rigid motor mounts (vibration) and such and the fact they were both rear sump pans....Long pickup tube from the front to the rear sump pan and only one support tab to the main cap..The fix was to weld 2 support tabs to the pickup tube bolted to 2 different main cap bolts........
it happens.......stuff breaks.....
luckily, both cars had 20 psi oil pressure kill switches, shuts the engines off when the oil pressure drops below 20 psi, no damage to either high dollar race engine....

David

[Dynamic]

Eric is smart for not making anymore comments on this post, and I hope he continues not to. As for the credibility of Eric and Performance Engineering, I have to say the following: As someone that worked at Dynamic Motorsports from 2004-2009 I have had a very close working relationship with Performance Engineering. They performed almost all of the drivetrain installations on the Cobra's, GT40's, and Daytona Coupes that were sold by Dynamic. I have personally witnessed Eric go above and beyond the call of duty to stand behind his products, and help customers with motors from other manufacturers. When a customer bought a SPF car from us, they had all of the options under the sun for drivetrain installs. They could choose Ford, Roush, etc. I personally saw more failures in 351 and 427 "crate" motors from the major manufacturers than I ever saw in Eric's engines.

One of the most important things to remember is that if you take a car out on a track, you are on your own. Everyone that has ever had a problem after a track day says the same thing...."I drove it conservatively" or "we only did a few lead follow sessions" but the fact remains that I have never witnessed anyone "baby" the car on the track. Why would you take a car on to the track unless you plan on driving it hard?

After selling a ton of SPF car and having a working relationship with PE in the past, I can say without a doubt that I would personally have Eric install my drivetrain....hands down.

[mreid]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Eric is smart for not making anymore comments on this post, and I hope he continues not to. As for the credibility of Eric and Performance Engineering, I have to say the following: As someone that worked at Dynamic Motorsports from 2004-2009 I have had a very close working relationship with Performance Engineering. They performed almost all of the drivetrain installations on the Cobra's, GT40's, and Daytona Coupes that were sold by Dynamic. I have personally witnessed Eric go above and beyond the call of duty to stand behind his products, and help customers with motors from other manufacturers. When a customer bought a SPF car from us, they had all of the options under the sun for drivetrain installs. They could choose Ford, Roush, etc. I personally saw more failures in 351 and 427 "crate" motors from the major manufacturers than I ever saw in Eric's engines.

One of the most important things to remember is that if you take a car out on a track, you are on your own. Everyone that has ever had a problem after a track day says the same thing...."I drove it conservatively" or "we only did a few lead follow sessions" but the fact remains that I have never witnessed anyone "baby" the car on the track. Why would you take a car on to the track unless you plan on driving it hard?

After selling a ton of SPF car and having a working relationship with PE in the past, I can say without a doubt that I would personally have Eric install my drivetrain....hands down.

I might have considered this reasonable if it wasn't for the broken valve train component thread going on at the same time. Perhaps you have a special relationship with PE that would ensure special treatment and top parts. If you would step back and remove your bias, I doubt you would feel the same if you read both threads. I'm a reasonable and forgiving person, but I would never buy from PE right now given the CURRENT situation. As all of your experience is historical, you might want to reconsider given the CURRENT situation. Pontiac used to build some great cars...

[DAVID GAGNARD]

After selling a ton of SPF car and having a working relationship with PE in the past, I can say without a doubt that I would personally have Eric install my drivetrain....hands down.

PE may do a great job of installing drivetrain components,but, what we're talking about here is building engines and so far I haven't seen anything to make me buy one of his engines....one failed after ONE MILE and another in less than 700 miles.......well, if you don't see the point, you never will.......

David