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-   -   "Sorting out" Issues... (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/116819-sorting-out-issues.html)

Mark IV 08-23-2012 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashburn (Post 1206628)
Well Mr. Muck it sounds like your associates in TX and at Gear 6 (Superformance Award of Excellence) have a different interpretation. So it's understandable.
Yes, it does appear so. As I said, I am relating my understanding of the regulations. Others may differ. Your mileage may vary.........

Go with what works for you.

RodKnock 08-23-2012 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV (Post 1206608)
Now, if a dealer completes a "component chassis" it is no longer a "component" but rather a "vehicle" and thus subject to all of the aforementioned standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV (Post 1206608)
I stand by my statement that the Federal regulations preclude a single source for a "turn key" car.
I know what point you're trying to make, but it isn't a consistent one. There are several possible parties to a transaction to sell a Cobra: Manufacturer, Dealer, Seller and Buyer.

The Kirkham's cannot legally sell me a turn-key car because they're the Manufacturer/Seller and I'm the Buyer. There are no intermediaries (i.e., Dealer), thus they cannot complete a Kirkham or they would violate Federal law.

OTH, you're a dealer, an intermediary, not a manufacturer, and I'll assume you are not a related entity to SPF in any way. You have an agreement to sell SPF's as Vintage Motorsports has agreement to sell BDR's.

Have you been advised by SPF or your own lawyer(s) that your independent SPF dealership cannot by Federal law finish a SPF Cobra for a customer?

RodKnock 08-23-2012 04:46 PM
BTW, Patrick knows everything. Maybe he could chime in and give us his thoughts. I'm surprised he hasn't since he gives his thoughts on virtually everything else here on CC.

Mark IV 08-23-2012 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock (Post 1206633)
Have you been advised by SPF or your own lawyer(s) that your independent SPF dealership cannot by Federal law finish a SPF Cobra for a customer?
In a word, yes. Once I supply the chassis AND powertrain or marry them, I am a "Manufacturer" in the eyes of NHTSA and EPA. It is a fine distinction but that is the interpertation I am going with. Again, others may see it differently and bless 'em if they do.

patrickt 08-23-2012 05:34 PM
If this will shut you guys up...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock (Post 1206635)
BTW, Patrick knows everything. Maybe he could chime in and give us his thoughts. I'm surprised he hasn't since he gives his thoughts on virtually everything else here on CC.
In regulated industries, the use of "related entities" to do what the parent is prohibited from doing is done all the time. Yes you need to dot some I's and cross some T's, but it is so common-place that in a lot of environments the first question, when a good deal is put in front of them, is "great, now which one of our companies can do that." MarkIV is simply not comfortable dancing down the road, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have little doubt that if he contacted any of the NY regulatory firms and asked them "Would you please help me sketch out a way that I can provide this service to willing buyers so that I will not expose myself to significant liability either at the state or federal level" that they would help him do it and give him a formal opinion, that if he does what they outline, he will not be in violation of state or federal law. That stack of paper will not be cheap though. Depending on the firm it could run as much as an SPF.:cool:

Cashburn 08-23-2012 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV (Post 1206629)
Yes, it does appear so. As I said, I am relating my understanding of the regulations. Others may differ. Your mileage may vary.........

Go with what works for you.
Looks like Olthoff also handles biz arms length: http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/supe...rktown-va.html

Maybe you're unique, nothing wrong with that.

Mark IV 08-23-2012 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashburn (Post 1206666)
Looks like Olthoff also handles biz arms length: http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/supe...rktown-va.html

Maybe you're unique, nothing wrong with that.
Jay, when I was little my mommy told me that I was "unique" but the other kids didn't believe it.:rolleyes:

Don't base your understanding upon what is posted in a CC thread. Dennis at Olthoff Racing does indeed do installs, he has done some for my customers. However Dennis is not now a Superformance dealer, he has given up the dealership portion to do installs and to operate as the DeFacto technical advisor for SPF. Olthoff was one of the early SPF dealers and has a great reputation amoungst their customers that is hard earned but Dennis also agrees that he cannot sell and install.

I can't speak for Auto Haus or any of the other Superformance dealerships although I know the way several handle the sale and they don't install. As I stated some may read the regulations differently as apparently you and your brother do. Again offering a turn key done by two unrelated entities is legal under the letter of the law so Auto Haus selling a turn key with the install done by Olthoff is legal.

Cashburn 08-23-2012 08:04 PM
After all that you finally got to it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV (Post 1206675)
Don't base your understanding upon what is posted in a CC thread.
That sums up your understanding of my business, as it does my understanding of yours.

mreid 08-23-2012 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo (Post 1206433)
My anti-dive belt was a bit on the tight side...found out the first time I braked hard.
I know, I had to special order a longer one!

Mark IV 08-23-2012 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashburn (Post 1206677)
After all that you finally got to it...



That sums up your understanding of my business, as it does my understanding of yours.
Jay,

I think you may have read more into this thread than there is. I am not talking about your operation and my comments are not directed at you or your business.

I have heard good things about your customer service and credit you for that. The drift of this thread has gone from the sorting out problems one purchaser had to legal definitions and interpertations.

I have offered all I need to on this and you or anyone else is welcome to disagree or hold an opposing view. The readers of this thread may come to their own conclusions and I truly hope will do their own due diligence before plunking down money with ANY seller.

RodKnock 08-24-2012 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV (Post 1206675)
However Dennis is not now a Superformance dealer, he has given up the dealership portion to do installs and to operate as the DeFacto technical advisor for SPF. Olthoff was one of the early SPF dealers and has a great reputation amoungst their customers that is hard earned but Dennis also agrees that he cannot sell and install.

Again offering a turn key done by two unrelated entities is legal under the letter of the law so Auto Haus selling a turn key with the install done by Olthoff is legal.
Maybe this is just a Superformance problem, if it's a problem at all.

Superformance is a manufacturer. Olthoff was a dealer and did installs too. Now he doesn't. I wish I knew the true reason for this, but I'm likely to never know. There are dealers that do installs under their own dealer's name.

Patrick, I know you can setup a legal trail to make an installer an unrelated entity to a dealer or manufacturer, but I still know of no law that says a dealer, unrelated to a manufacturer, cannot do the installs under the dealer's name.

patrickt 08-24-2012 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock (Post 1206709)
Patrick, I know you can setup a legal trail to make an installer an unrelated entity to a dealer or manufacturer, but I still know of no law that says a dealer, unrelated to a manufacturer, cannot do the installs under the dealer's name.
That's because there isn't one. The fear is that there will be a knock on the door, scary storm-trooper type guys will be standing there, and they say "you're an auto manufacturer and you're now regulated by us, and you've been a very bad boy...." That fear, IMO, is not a realistic one. Just take a few minutes to dot your I's' (like anything else in life).

Dimis 08-24-2012 05:30 AM
Yikes... Talk aboot thread drift.

I truly admire Mark IV for sticking to his principles on this one.
Weather legal or illegal, right or wrong, self-righteous or otherwise, I tip my hat to him for choosing to steer clear of what he may view as a "dishonest practice" for the sake of a few extra bucks.

The lawyers will disagree with me on this one, but: "Just because you can, does mean you should!".

jhv48 08-24-2012 05:54 AM
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a guy in California trying to register a newly completed cobra he bought from out of state and was denied registration by the state because there was a perceived relationship between the dealer and installer even though they were seperate operations? I believe the registration was denied because the installer derived most of its income from this one dealer thus appearing to be an extension of the dealer, thus appearing to be a turnkey vehicle. Not sure how this was resolved.
Or I may be completely wrong.

bingo2 08-24-2012 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhv48 (Post 1206723)
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a guy in California trying to register a newly completed cobra he bought from out of state and was denied registration by the state because there was a perceived relationship between the dealer and installer even though they were seperate operations? I believe the registration was denied because the installer derived most of its income from this one dealer thus appearing to be an extension of the dealer, thus appearing to be a turnkey vehicle. Not sure how this was resolved.
Or I may be completely wrong.
I'm curious about this as well! That thread disappeared very quickly.

mln385 08-24-2012 09:10 AM
Anyone remember the boyd coddington issue and the raid by the feds? Don't remember the outcome though....

Cashburn 08-24-2012 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mln385 (Post 1206738)
Anyone remember the boyd coddington issue and the raid by the feds? Don't remember the outcome though....
Nor the case it seems, since it has no bearing on this discussion as started or evolved... **)

RodKnock 08-24-2012 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimis (Post 1206720)
I truly admire Mark IV for sticking to his principles on this one. Weather legal or illegal, right or wrong, self-righteous or otherwise, I tip my hat to him for choosing to steer clear of what he may view as a "dishonest practice" for the sake of a few extra bucks.

The lawyers will disagree with me on this one, but: "Just because you can, does mean you should!".
A. There's nothing wrong with making money. Dealers or installers. You, me or anyone.

B. There's nothing inherently dishonest about a dealer installing and engine and tranny in a component car he or she just sold. There are countless instances of installers being dishonest, just from threads on this forum alone.

It's only a "dishonest practice" if someone commits an illegal, immoral and/or unethical act.

mln385 08-24-2012 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashburn (Post 1206747)
Nor the case it seems, since it has no bearing on this discussion as started or evolved... **)
Ah yes can always count on you for a snappy retort.:LOL:

Cashburn 08-24-2012 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mln385 (Post 1206766)
Ah yes can always count on you for a snappy retort.:LOL:
Based in fact. :rolleyes:


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