"Sorting out" Issues...

[itstock]

However frustrating my car has been with 500 miles (it's actually 457 over a 5 month period), my issues don't seem ANYWHERE as bad as the above items. I will reiterate again later, but VMS has either taken care of the issues, or is actively working to take care of the issues. It's not for lack of trying. IMO, the PA to CT distance is at fault for these items not being taken care of. Had I been able to, or if I did deliver it myself, I firmly believe that VMS would have taken care of the issues without hesitation. In the mean time, I am just hoping (and crossing my fingers) that they are in the area soon so that they can personally address everything.

There are three issues that I'm currently having (only two of which are bothersome). Some of you will probably even laugh at my measly little problems.

The first is that the brake cylinder to reservoir is leaking, enough to drip out of the side vent of the car and all over the side of the car. It's not enough to significantly decrease the brake fluid level though. But I'm not fond of the idea of continuing to drive a car that has known leaks, nor am I comfortable knowing that there is a problem with the brake system. It's a BDR warranty issue, faulty part, whatever you call it.

The second issue is easily avoidable, but still not right. The gas leaks through the sending unit if "overfilled". It has only happened once, when I obviously wasn't careful enough to stop putting fuel in the tank when I watched it starting to slow on the fill. I came home directly after fill up, and checked a bit later to find a puddle of fuel in the garage. Although worrisome, it's probably the least of my worries as it's so easy to avoid. I believe this to be a BDR warranty issue.

The other issue, which is more of a serious disappointment, is that the car can't go WOT. Or even half throttle. Or anywhere close really after very short periods. The pedal assembly throttle stop literally bends with pinky pressure. When I say the car can't go WOT, I really mean that the car can barely go off idle. Fine, some people drive these cars where that is all they want to do. That's not the car that I bought though, and I'd like to have the option to actually be able to pass people. It's quite clearly a BDR manufacturing issue (and NOT a VMS "tuning" issue as I had originally thought and wrongly placed blame).

My other issues have been taken care of, including a paid warranty claim through VMS where I had a local shop do work. There was no problem with the claim, and VMS did everything they could (including over the net diagnosis), as fast as they possibly could (the shop, where I have taken my daily drivers for years, is a different story).

Now that the three new issues are BDR issues, I suppose that I will either wait it out until VMS is in the area and can take the car back (they have communicated quite clearly with the throttle issue, and we ARE working on a solution, though I don't believe I will be able to fix this one), or find a local place that I can trust to work on these cars.

Either way, my car has sat for the past 2 weeks, and it will continue to sit because of these minor, yet very annoying issues.

I will say that Jay at VMS has responded promptly, at all hours, for any and all of my issues. Hopefully once these items are addressed, I'll be able to drive/enjoy the car without any other significant items popping up. But it is quite bothersome that I genuinely want to rack up miles on the car, yet I can't. So this thread was made out of frustration and to find out what other issues I can "look forward to". With as few posts that were made stating their issues in comparison to views/members/owners here, I don't think that I'm asking too much.

Lastly, I understand that these cars are what they are. If I were racing the car I'd completely understand extensive maintenance. It's also a harsher than average ride, so more nuts/bolts are vibrated and jolted loose. They are powerful cars that break parts, and find weak links. I accept that. I just wish that my problems were a result of those conditions.

Steve

[Mark IV]

I am confident that Jay will handle or arrange to handle the warranty issues. BDR and SPF are good about handling issues related to the chassis.

We (SPF) actually don't have many chassis warranty issues and have cars that that are on the road that have never had a claim filed, and most are small items, but no less important than a major problem in the eyes of the owner.

If you have a problem let your dealer know and give them the chance to repair/resolve the issue in a reasonable time frame. Now, if you don't get resolution or a positive outcome, that is the time to contact the distributor and relate the story.

As many of our customers are not local we often must work with a third party repair facility as it is more expediant/cost effective to shipping a car multiple hundreds of miles. This is where a referral of a good shop is very valuable.

[Mark IV]

Could it be that certain dealers are now creating new business entities to attempt to put some additional diatance between the "seller" and the "installer"?

Gee, if what they do now is "legal" why would you go to the trouble and expense of another corporation?

A little Googling of the corporate filings will reveal the story.

Again, do your due diligence if buying a "turn-key" from anyone. The law says "built for resale" so even Joe Bubba the builder is a "manufacturer" if he built it not for himself or not as a contracted labor supplier but if he supplied the kit and powertrain for sale to an end user.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Could it be that certain dealers are now creating new business entities to attempt to put some additional diatance between the "seller" and the "installer"?

Gee, if what they do now is "legal" why would you go to the trouble and expense of another corporation?

A little Googling of the corporate filings will reveal the story.

Again, do your due diligence if buying a "turn-key" from anyone. The law says "built for resale" so even Joe Bubba the builder is a "manufacturer" if he built it not for himself or not as a contracted labor supplier but if he supplied the kit and powertrain for sale to an end user.

Some actually have legitimate business reasons and for you to cast a wide net and insinuate that they're all crooks is just wrong. There are business partnership and insurance reasons just to name a couple. Try and see the good in people because the unkind will not be "rewarded."

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Some actually have legitimate business reasons and for you to cast a wide net and insinuate that they're all crooks is just wrong. There are business partnership and insurance reasons just to name a couple. Try and see the good in people because the unkind will not be "rewarded."

There is NO intention to brand anyone as "crooks" and my post was not aimed at ANY dealer. It WAS aimed at buyers so that they will go in with eyes open and be comfortable with the relationship with their dealer of choice. In the end, it up to the buyer to decide if the business model of the dealer they choose is a "fit" for them and their purchase. My point was that some people are changing corporate entity forms to possibly avoid the issues I raised previously, not to label anyone a crook.

Some buyers will see my "manufacturer" point and some won't. Their money and their choice. The issue is to be aware of the options and issues and make an informed choice whatever that choice my be.

Again, sorry if anyone read more into the post than was intended. I am not aware of any dealer posting here that is a bad actor......all I am aware of are giving good customer service to my knowledge.

[YerDugliness]

I could see a less than "attenuated" relationship between a dealer and the installer if they were both legal corporations...even if the two corporations were run by brothers and shared the same space. The legal corporations would be the entities who were providing the roller and the drivetrain, and even if they shared the same physical space as long as neither of the two brothers have and ownership stake in both corporations in any way that would be enough "distance" for me if I were on a jury.

Now, if one person owned or even had an ownership stake in both corporations, I would look at that differently....

The bottom line is "follow the money"....if either brother benefitted financially from the other brother's business, that would be reason to suspect malfeasance.

Cheers!

Dugly

[brettco]

I've been sorting my car out for 13 years. Some parts have worn out before being sorted out. If you don't want (sorting a cars problems out) as a longterm hobby this may not be the car for you. When I see people asking about heaters for a Cobra I wonder how their car can be so different from mine. It's HOT.

[stephen_becker]

Let me see if I can add to the story here - First off MrGeorge077 in Texas is my customer (CSX 8050) he is a stand-up guy who has gone thru allot with his CSX car - He has the patience’s & understanding of a true enthusiast - This car (CSX 8050) was the first CSX 8000 built by Hi-Tech and had a ton of issues, most of what we worked on and worked out here at the dealership prior to his delivery. These issues should have been worked out by hi-Tech & SAI but………………. / I have asked George for & received the additional expense invoices that he incurred after delivery of the car and I have sent those to SAI for reimbursement - To date I have heard nothing back from SAI management and I continue to press SAI for financial assistance in making Mr. George happy & whole – Its called doing the right thing - part of my lawsuit against SAI has to do with the lack of support SAI gives me as a factory-authorized Shelby American Inc dealer so I know that this issue will be (eventually) addressed in the jury trial that starts on September 11, 2013 @ 8:30am in downtown Los Angeles.

As someone that has been involved in the Shelby hobby & industry since 1977 I can assure all parties interested that if SAI does not/will not reimburse Mr. George for his out-of-pocket expenses to correct build & warranty issues with his car, that I will.

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by stephen_becker;1****15

Let me see if I can add to the story here - First off MrGeorge077 in Texas is my customer (CSX 8050) he is a stand-up guy who has gone thru allot with his CSX car - He has the patience’s & understanding of a true enthusiast - This car (CSX 8050) was the first CSX 8000 built by Hi-Tech and had a ton of issues, most of what we worked on and worked out here at the dealership prior to his delivery. These issues should have been worked out by hi-Tech & SAI but………………. / I have asked George for & received the additional expense invoices that he incurred after delivery of the car and I have sent those to SAI for reimbursement - To date I have heard nothing back from SAI management and I continue to press SAI for financial assistance in making Mr. George happy & whole – Its called doing the right thing - part of my lawsuit against SAI has to do with the lack of support SAI gives me as a factory-authorized Shelby American Inc dealer so I know that this issue will be (eventually) addressed in the jury trial that starts on September 11, 2013 @ 8:30am in downtown Los Angeles.

As someone that has been involved in the Shelby hobby & industry since 1977 I can assure all parties interested that if SAI does not/will not reimburse Mr. George for his out-of-pocket expenses to correct build & warranty issues with his car, that I will.

The following is a copy of an email and my response back to Stephen Becker this morning. Hoping this bring some clarity and transparency to this issue, once and for all. In closing I would like to thank the members of this forum for the advice, opinions and encouragement that you have given to me over the last several months, it's very much appreciated. This will be the last that you will hear of me speaking on the subject. Best regards George


RE: CSX 8050‏
11:31 AM
Reply ▼
GEORGE HARGRAVE

To stephenbecker

Stephen, you got to be kidding me, I have no idea what you are talking about, you know as well as I do that Shelby American has no financial responsibility to me in our transaction. You are the one that sold me the automobile, cash my checks, took delivery of the roller, install the engine and drivetrain and then shipped it to me in a deplorable condition. Why you did that I have no idea, maybe you were just in a rush to get the car out. To remind you when I received the car , here were the initial issues:



__________________________________________________ __________

"1. Speedometer was registering 20 miles off because of wrong gear in transmission.
2. Tachometer wasn’t working because dip switches had not been properly set.
3. Carburetors were blowing raw fuel on to the engine, floats were set to high.
4. Brakes were only working at around 50% had to flush and adjust.
5. Left wheel bearing had to be adjusted.
6. Radiator expansion tank was leaking antifreeze into the engine compartment, had to be replaced.
7. All four wheels were out of alignment and had to be realigned.

After 200 miles, I experience the following additional issues.

1.T-bar reverse lockout on the shifter broke.

2.Remote starter solenoid failed and had to be replaced.

3.Exhaust system improperly installed and was generating excess heat in the cockpit area; mufflers after 100 miles were beginning to burn the drivers and passenger side floor pans out. Exhaust system re-engineered and interior as well as exterior heat reflected material installed.

After 300 miles, the following additional issues came up.

1. Transmission will not shift into third or fourth gear; this issue will have to be addressed when we receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

2. Parking Brake does not fully disengage rear wheels this issue will have to be addressed when receive the car back from the upholstery shop"

__________________________________________________ ___________

In addition ,as indicated above, after we received the car back from the upholstery shop it was found that the transmission would not shift after the car had gotten hot, however after it cooled down it would work just fine until it got hot again. After chasing that rabbit and others into various rabbit holes for months we finally gave up and installed a TKO 600 transmission and a Mcleod Street Pro Clutch, ever since the car has performed as it should. So basically after taking delivery, from you, in May 2012 we have replaced everything you installed with the exception of the engine. Thanks!

None of those issues involved Shelby American whatsoever, in fact they have been very helpful to me in finding parts , giving advice and their opinion. I would give a special shout out to Tony in Las Vegas who has been most helpful.

So I am at a complete loss to your question in this morning's email to me. Shelby American has no financial obligation to me nor should they. I do not understand how you can go on to this form and make these claims, which will certainly prove not to be in your best interest.

The true facts of the matter is that in October 2012, see your email below, you gave me assurance that you would reimburse me for certain expenses as you also know those expenses have not been reimbursed, however I patiently wait. I'm sure you're going to make it right one day. Thanks, George


__________________________________________________ _______

Emails receicved

Stephenbecker
To georgehargrave@msn.com
From:

stephen becker (stephenbecker@bellsouth.net)
Sent:
Sun 1/06/13 8:37 AM

Will you please share with me what, if anything, SAI has told/sent you in reference to reimbursement for the items on your car?To date I have heard nothing back from them & I know you submitted info on your own and I was following – up with you
Thank You

SGB

__________________________________________________ _________


From: stephenbecker@bellsouth.net
To: georgehargrave@msn.com
CC: margerychilds@msn.com
Subject: RE: CSX 8050
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:54:02 -0400



Margery

Pls cut a check to reimburse George for these one-time expenses on his CSX 8050 car

Thanks


__________________________________________________ ___________


From: GEORGE HARGRAVE [mailto:georgehargrave@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:43 PM
To: stephenbecker
Subject: CSX 8050


Hi Stephen,

I appreciate your willingness to take care of these expenses on the Cobra. The following are the total expenses associated with repairs of the vehicle. I’ve attached invoices which better explain the following.

Ceramic plate coat headers and exhaust system, reinstall headers and exhaust, expenses associated with that. $2368.00 see page 1 of the attached

Expense to remove headers and exhaust system $650 see page 2 of the attached

Original expenses incurred in June associated with defects and operating issues concerning the Cobra, these are the expenses we talked about originally. $1121 See page 3 attached

In summary

$2368

$ 650

$1121

Total $4139

I have a meeting I’m going to this afternoon but I will call you in the morning. Thanks, again best regards George

[Tutosnake]

Wow, what a mess... Best of luck to Mr.George. I hope at the end you are enjoying your car to the max

[stephen_becker]

Perhaps but then again who knows - I have never seen anything that would apply to this situation on a federal level - Plus, back in the 1990's CS/SAI built turn-key CSX alumn body cars and sold them for, what, $ 500,000.00 each?? Those cars were turn-keyed at SAI using Shelby Engine company alumn 427 motors, etc. etc.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by stephen_becker;1****27

Perhaps but then again who knows - I have never seen anything that would apply to this situation on a federal level - Plus, back in the 1990's CS/SAI built turn-key CSX alumn body cars and sold them for, what, $ 500,000.00 each?? Those cars were turn-keyed at SAI using Shelby Engine company alumn 427 motors, etc. etc.

Those turn-keyed cars were eventually deemed to not be "street legal" in California and the state would not register them. They were the ones initially marketed as an assembly of some leftover 60's parts. ;-)
I don't believe the new aluminum 427 existed then, they were touted as using NOS (60's) 427's.

[stephen_becker]

Originally Posted by A-Snake;1****36

Those turn-keyed cars were eventually deemed to not be "street legal" in California and the state would not register them. They were the ones initially marketed as an assembly of some leftover 60's parts. ;-)
I don't believe the new aluminum 427 existed then, they were touted as using NOS (60's) 427's.

I have a scan of a very interesting article from 1995 about these cars, the build process etc etc

I cannot figure out how to post it so if someone that knows how please can just email me at sbecker@goplanetcobra.com I will email the scan to them and they can turn around and post it here - It would be a great article for all that are interested to read

SGB

[itstock]

And I see that I didn't give a 100% update on my car either. VMS fixed my small issues without any trouble months ago, picked the car up and delivered it back in perfect condition.

I have absolutely zero complaints with the car, and more importantly, in hind sight, zero complaints about how Jay and Vintage handled everything. I don't believe it could have been handled any better, and I almost feel stupid for making this thread in the first place. However, it is nice to see for other owners and potential buyers what can and should be expected, and what should not be expected.

George, I hope this is the end of your big issues, warranty claims, and can finally drive the car without having any leftover bitter feelings.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by itstock;1****50

And I see that I didn't give a 100% update on my car either. VMS fixed my small issues without any trouble months ago, picked the car up and delivered it back in perfect condition.

I have absolutely zero complaints with the car, and more importantly, in hind sight, zero complaints about how Jay and Vintage handled everything. I don't believe it could have been handled any better, and I almost feel stupid for making this thread in the first place. However, it is nice to see for other owners and potential buyers what can and should be expected, and what should not be expected.

Another fully satisfied VMS customer. Congrats to Jay and to "itstock"!

I think that concludes this thread.

Good luck George.

[stephen_becker]

George - I was not aware of these additional items and issues that you brought up today - Most of what you had issues with belong squarely with SAI under warranty - The transmission replacement puzzles me as that was a new 4 speed transmission and you spoke with the builder of the transmission and the issue with the slip out was caused by heat from SAI not installing proper heat shields (that they finally started putting on later production cars).

Nevertheless, I am on this with SAI & their legal in the AM and will get back with you promptly

SGB

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by stephen_becker;1****56

George - I was not aware of these additional items and issues that you brought up today - Most of what you had issues with belong squarely with SAI under warranty - The transmission replacement puzzles me as that was a new 4 speed transmission and you spoke with the builder of the transmission and the issue with the slip out was caused by heat from SAI not installing proper heat shields (that they finally started putting on later production cars).

Nevertheless, I am on this with SAI & their legal in the AM and will get back with you promptly

SGB

Stephen thanks for the $1100 reimbursement check, I appreciate that. I was never aware of the fact that you had submitted the additional invoices to Shelby International, Las Vegas it was my understanding from our correspondents, that you were going to handle that. However, if SAI has the invoices will just wait and see what they will do toward the warranty.

As far as the transmission and clutch, unable to shift after the car got hot problem, we never did figure out what caused the problem. At one point after we had ceramic plate coated the exhaust system, we thought that might take care of the issue but sure enough once the car heated up it would refuse to shift from fourth to third or to any gear then after it sat and cool off everything would work fine. At the end it got to a point where the transmission would not shift at all hot or cold.

The only thing left for us to do was to pull the transmission and clutch then tear into both. However, given the fact that the four-speed at 70 miles an hour was turning 3300 RPMs I decided since we were going to have to pull them; we might as well replace the transmission with a five speed and replace the clutch with a hydraulic clutch. Since then the car has performed very well without any additional shifting issues.

Let me know if you hear anything concerning reimbursement to me from SAI.

Thanks,

George

[stephen_becker]

BTW - I will be happy to buy back the 4 speed transmission & accessories that was in that car when it left my dealership - I do not know why you chose to replace it with a 5 speed but that was your call -

SGB

[patrickt]

I feel sorry for anyone who tries to make a living off of buying or selling our Cobras, building our FE engines, or anything else that has to do with this stupid-ass hobby.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by stephen_becker;1****57

BTW - I will be happy to buy back the 4 speed transmission & accessories that was in that car when it left my dealership - I do not know why you chose to replace it with a 5 speed but that was your call -

SGB

I'm guessing it may be because it's the Year is 2013 and they make this thing called overdrive which has some inherent advantages over a 1960's transmission.