Carroll Shelby

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Beating the same dead query three times in a row, despite explanations, makes me believe you are driving an agenda, not seeking wisdom and truth.

Not a popular tactic around here.

For what it's worth, from one who was there in the 60's...
The 428 in the 427 Cobra pretty much meant nothing to the average buyer.
Hey? ....just like "Spinal Tap," ...428 was one more than 427.

Like...it went to eleven.

Wisdom and truth?!?

Wow. Really?!?

So there have been those who offered varying explanations/excuses, those who do not want a hero to be questioned, and those who think he was less than perfect.


I was hoping for some counterpoint explanations or further understanding of why Shelby would do such things and with the VIN Fraud received little other than that he was "creative" and a bit of a salesman. With the 428 issue, I read this in a book that glorifies Shelby and again was curious. Found a couple different reasons that started to sound like excuses but in the end maybe the 428 issue wasn't such a big deal.

Sorry to have questioned your messiah as your reply seems very "cultish" to me. I have no agenda, other than to learn as much as I can about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now. Again, I was very surprised to read about the VIN fraud and the 428 issue and was looking to better understand it rather than excuse it away. Like I said, I am new to ownership and this forum and thought that some perspective may help. I was really looking for reasons to mitigate or even dismiss these incidents. In the end, I think that the 428 issue may be explainable although somewhat strange and the other issue of VIN fraud not as much.

Thank you to all those who were kind enough to explain their perspectives and offer some good reading material! I have placed my order for the Shelby Registry book and will likely seek out a few others.

Since it seems a good number of people want to quickly sweep this under the rug, as someone else stated, let’s just talk cars as it seems that discussing Shelby in any light less than hero is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

.... is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

If you are referring to my post as a silly retort, that is a bit of a failure in judgement.

Sorry, I ain't buying your explanation.

"...about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now." seems a little hard to swallow.

If it's true, do some homework and come back with your opinions.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by computerworks

If you are referring to my post as a silly retort, that is a bit of a failure in judgement.

Sorry, I ain't buying your explanation.

"...about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now." seems a little hard to swallow.

If it's true, do some homework and come back with your opinions.

That's what I am trying to do...

What? do you think I am a covert Ferrari or Vette owner?!? :-D

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

Like I said, I am new to ownership

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

So, specifically, what do you own?

Hello from Detroit

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

I own a A&C Kit Replica as I cannot afford an original Cobra.

I don't have a chip at all, seems some are very very defensive here. Wikipedia describes VIN fraud that I was refering to (not the 428 issues)
here:

Counterfeit Cobras

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times blew the lid off a Carroll Shelby scheme[10] to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter [11] forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database [12] or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[14] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and 92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

AC Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I should have known better than to post this thread. Oh well...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I own a A&C Kit Replica as I cannot afford an original Cobra.

I don't have a chip at all, seems some are very very defensive here. Wikipedia describes VIN fraud that I was refering to (not the 428 issues)
here:

Counterfeit Cobras

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times blew the lid off a Carroll Shelby scheme[10] to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter [11] forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database [12] or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[14] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and 92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

AC Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I should have known better than to post this thread. Oh well...

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

This is why I posted this here... To better understand but at this point I don't think we can be very productive. As a couple others have offered some good book recommendations I will follow-up on some of those.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

On a side note, I just took a look at your GT500 pic. Wow! Beautiful!! Is that the original color?!?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

On a side note, I just took a look at your GT500 pic. Wow! Beautiful!! Is that the original color?!?

Yup, original Grabber Orange.

As for books, the SAAC Registry is the only one you need right now, the rest make for good reading material (mostly outdated), but that is about it.

How about posting some pictures of your A&C Cobra.


Bill S.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Yup, original Grabber Orange.

As for books, the SAAC Registry is the only one you need right now, the rest make for good reading material (mostly outdated), but that is about it.

How about posting some pictures of your A&C Cobra.


Bill S.

I mailed my check today for the SAAC book but I think I want to pick-up the biography too.

It is winter here and I haven't gotten any good pics yet. Driveway has ice/snow. Will post some "good" ones in the spring. I have one I took with my cell phone when I first brought it home. I'll post that later.

Color is awesome on your GT500! I imagine it is a fairly rare color?

[DougD]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

Bill
For someone who has been around these cars for 30+ years, you should know that the sideoiler is not the only 427 used, and that the 428CJ did not even exist when Cobra 427s were in production. Starting to slip a bit, old man?
Doug

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by DougD

Bill
For someone who has been around these cars for 30+ years, you should know that the sideoiler is not the only 427 used, and that the 428CJ did not even exist when Cobra 427s were in production. Starting to slip a bit, old man?
Doug

Oh, it's just a typo, I'm sure PI and CJ are probably right next to each other on the keyboard.