| csx4017 |
02-28-2013 09:40 AM |
Pin drive wheels don't come off because there is anti-seize / lube on the mating surfaces. Pins do not shear unless the spinner is not torqued sufficiently. To lube or not to lube.........that is the question. I suggest that the primary reasons for spinners being difficult to remove are;
1) dry threads ( potential galling )
2) dry spinner contact chamfer to dry wheel chamfer ( potential galling )
I lightly lube all mating surfaces ( except during a pit stop )
My experience with bolt or pin loading suggest they will see yield load before ultimate load and start to bend before they shear........If they actually sheared off, the wheel must have been walking out and putting the pins in a shear bending mode.
I think wheel to hub surface lube can be debated but I suggest lubrication of the chamfers and threads is critical to an uneventful removal.
What say you ???
|
| rpatton3 |
02-28-2013 10:16 AM |
Thanks. These forums are great!
|
| 601HP |
02-28-2013 12:33 PM |
In the mid-1990's I had an "eventful" couple of wheel removals. I may have used anti-seize too sparingly.
Since then, I've lathered on the anti-seize like butter. I apply it to all mated surfaces. If any excess appears when I mount the wheel, a rag or paper towel soaked in mineral spirits wipes it off easily. I haven't fought with any wheel removals since.
I occasionally drift the car. I spin the tires frequently. I still have the same 19 year old pins on the front hubs. The rear pins aren't as old because I installed new cast iron uprights, hubs and pins about 6 years ago. None of my pins indicate torque issues or stress.
FWIW.
David
|
| xb-60 |
02-28-2013 01:29 PM |
Drive torque is transmitted from the hub to the wheel via friction between the two surfaces only. Therefore it's extremely important that the correct torque is applied to the spinner. The pins aren't intended to provide any drive at all. The only situation where pins are subjected to shear or bending is when the spinner is not torqued correctly. :eek:
Cheers,
Glen
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| Cobra #3170 |
02-28-2013 01:32 PM |
Pin failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt
(Post 1229128)
Uhhh, did these cases involve the cheesy five pin jobs, that only look the same when the wheel is on, or the nice six pin stuff?:confused:
|
These cases were on Original Cobras with hardened 1/2" pins on 6 pin wheels, and the wheels did not come off after shearing the pins. I agree the 5 pin stuff is garbage. |
| ACademic |
02-28-2013 04:07 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1233089)
the 5 pin stuff is garbage.
|
Please educate me. Structurally speaking, wouldn't adding another hole to the wheel hub actually weaken it? And if six is truly superior to five, then how come every OEM, including the 200mph cars (ZR1) still use five lug nuts instead of six? Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges (lugs vs. pins clamped by a central spinner), but I'm all ears. |
| Bill D |
02-28-2013 04:27 PM |
Another vote for anti-seize
|
| patrickt |
02-28-2013 05:24 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACademic
(Post 1233112)
Please educate me. Structurally speaking, wouldn't adding another hole to the wheel hub actually weaken it? And if six is truly superior to five, then how come every OEM, including the 200mph cars (ZR1) still use five lug nuts instead of six? Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges (lugs vs. pins clamped by a central spinner), but I'm all ears.
|
The problem is not six versus five, with six being better/stronger. Rather, the problem is with the mechanism that turns bolt-ons in to apparent pin drives. Six lugs are probably about the same as five lugs; six pins are probably about the same as five pins. Bolt-ons that are kludged in to appearing that they are pin drives are inferior because of the kludge. They are, in other words, a cur. |
| ACademic |
02-28-2013 05:35 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt
(Post 1233120)
The problem is not six versus five, with six being better/stronger. Rather, the problem is with the mechanism that turns bolt-ons in to apparent pin drives. Six lugs are probably about the same as five lugs; six pins are probably about the same as five pins. Bolt-ons that are kludged in to appearing that they are pin drives are inferior because of the kludge. They are, in other words, a cur.
|
I asked 3170, not you. I want a real answer. Nice try, rook.:LOL: |
| patrickt |
02-28-2013 05:38 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACademic
(Post 1233122)
I asked 3170, not you. I want a real answer. Nice try, rook.:LOL:
|
Well I'm not sure why you took offense to it. I gave you a simple, straight-forward answer.%/ |
| Cobra #3170 |
02-28-2013 06:30 PM |
6 vs 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACademic
(Post 1233122)
I asked 3170, not you. I want a real answer. Nice try, rook.:LOL:
|
It is the design of the 5 pin set up that is the problem not the number. at least the ones I have seen. On the technical side more fasteners are almost always better unless the number of holes weaken the parent structure. Formula Atlantics back in the Cosworth days had 12 flywheel bolts because of vibrational issues on a very small crank end flange. Aircraft design uses many small fasteners instead of a smaller number of large fasteners, heavy duty trucks use 6 bolt hubs, NASCAR is using lots of designs from the early days which are clearly outdated but they want to keep things "inexpensive".
I haven't done the math but I would bet that (6) 1/2 fasteners in shear would have a higher failure load than (5) 5/8" fasteners. On the other side of the issue it is harder to get more fasteners to pick up the load in unison. |
| patrickt |
02-28-2013 06:38 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1233130)
It is the design of the 5 pin set up that is the problem not the number. at least the ones I have seen.
|
There's no shortage of threads on here about 5 pin problems. Most of them hold together just fine, but some have real problems. The truth is that the only reason they're used on Cobra replicas is to save money. That's just the way it is.:cool: |
| Rick Parker |
02-28-2013 09:44 PM |
CHECK your NUTS:
Most of the 5 pin adapters utilize OEM 1/2" studs, but I believe the 6 pin setup on all the CSX cars and others actually are secured by 3/8 SAE nuts on the part of the stud that anchors in the wheel flange.
This is a unique 6 pin setup:
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...re_055__2_.jpg
By the way the rotor was for the LR. |
| Cobra #3170 |
03-01-2013 06:54 AM |
3/8" nuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Parker
(Post 1233154)
CHECK your NUTS:
Most of the 5 pin adapters utilize OEM 1/2" studs, but I believe the 6 pin setup on all the CSX cars and others actually are secured by 3/8 SAE nuts on the part of the stud that anchors in the wheel flange.
This is a unique 6 pin setup:
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...re_055__2_.jpg
By the way the rotor was for the LR.
|
The CSX cars have the .5" pins recessed into the hub so that the pin is in shear the 3/8 " threaded portion and nut hold the pin in position so that the shear load is through the .5" portion of the pin. |
| razerwire |
03-01-2013 06:55 AM |
Take the pins out clamp back on with just spinner, I would like see Video of aggressively accelerating.
|
| ACademic |
03-01-2013 08:42 AM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1233130)
It is the design of the 5 pin set up that is the problem not the number. at least the ones I have seen. On the technical side more fasteners are almost always better unless the number of holes weaken the parent structure. Formula Atlantics back in the Cosworth days had 12 flywheel bolts because of vibrational issues on a very small crank end flange. Aircraft design uses many small fasteners instead of a smaller number of large fasteners, heavy duty trucks use 6 bolt hubs, NASCAR is using lots of designs from the early days which are clearly outdated but they want to keep things "inexpensive". I haven't done the math but I would bet that (6) 1/2 fasteners in shear would have a higher failure load than (5) 5/8" fasteners. On the other side of the issue it is harder to get more fasteners to pick up the load in unison.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1233186)
The CSX cars have the .5" pins recessed into the hub so that the pin is in shear the 3/8 " threaded portion and nut hold the pin in position so that the shear load is through the .5" portion of the pin.
|
Cobra #3170, an EXCELLENT set of responses. Thank you very much. |
| mdross1 |
03-02-2013 02:50 AM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by csx4017
(Post 1233065)
Pin drive wheels don't come off because there is anti-seize / lube on the mating surfaces. Pins do not shear unless the spinner is not torqued sufficiently. To lube or not to lube.........that is the question. I suggest that the primary reasons for spinners being difficult to remove are;
1) dry threads ( potential galling )
2) dry spinner contact chamfer to dry wheel chamfer ( potential galling )
I lightly lube all mating surfaces ( except during a pit stop )
My experience with bolt or pin loading suggest they will see yield load before ultimate load and start to bend before they shear........If they actually sheared off, the wheel must have been walking out and putting the pins in a shear bending mode.
I think wheel to hub surface lube can be debated but I suggest lubrication of the chamfers and threads is critical to an uneventful removal.
What say you ???
|
Because of all the years spent playing with these cars and all the other hot rods lubing the threads and spinner contact points is a must.When the car is stored then maybe the wheel to rotor surface to prohibit corrosion,when racing or hard driving clean dry surface.
It only makes sense to tighten the spinner as required to prevent the wheel from eventually egg shaping the pin holes or worse.Hammer tight works in racing! |
| 347stroker |
03-02-2013 12:43 PM |
I'm down at Sebring with the entourage from Cobra Automotive. Between racing sessions the techs go over the cars. I noticed that they lubed the mating surfaces and the threads with anti-seize, pounded the hell out of the spinners, safety wired them and back on the track. This was on a CSX car. If these guys do it that way for racing then it should be more than adequate for street use. Tom
|
| patrickt |
03-02-2013 02:03 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by 347stroker
(Post 1233347)
I'm down at Sebring with the entourage from Cobra Automotive. Between racing sessions the techs go over the cars. I noticed that they lubed the mating surfaces and the threads with anti-seize, pounded the hell out of the spinners, safety wired them and back on the track. This was on a CSX car. If these guys do it that way for racing then it should be more than adequate for street use. Tom
|
Just out of curiosity, any five pin stuff out there? |
| 347stroker |
03-02-2013 02:10 PM |
Didn't notice that but I will look or ask one of the techs. I just got an answer. The two CSX cars are six pin as is the Autokraft. The Shelby cars, the Cougars and the Camaro are all five lug. Hope this helps.
Tom
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