| Snake2998 |
01-25-2013 10:02 PM |
Lubricant for Pin Drive spinner
I am in the process of fitting pin drive wheels on my Cobra and wandered What lubricants to use between Aluminium spinner, steel hub adapter and Ally wheel to minimise galvanic corrosion and binding.
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| razerwire |
01-25-2013 10:14 PM |
ANTI-SEIZE is messy . I use white grease with no problems, I also change to different wheels and tires 3 or 4 times a year on csx car.. The wheels were on the Bennett car for 4 years with no problems. Some will probably say to take wheels off once in a while which would not hurt.
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| FritoBandito |
01-25-2013 10:51 PM |
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| Snake2998 |
01-26-2013 12:36 AM |
Thanks so far - another thought is whether lubrication of the clamping chamfer is a good idea or not as it will increase the load on the pins by reducing the friction on the mounting face which I would guess contributes significantly to the torque resistance.
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| KevinW |
01-26-2013 05:26 AM |
this is something i have never properly understood.
On the little race car project i am involved in (although not mechanically), my mech engineering colleague has assured me that the pins on a knock-on wheel are for placement of the wheel only, and that all the drive torque should be provided by the tightly clamped friction between rear face of the wheel onto the hub face, and that this load is then spread over a large surface area. Hence ive been told the drive surface should be fitted dry.
But it seems on cobra knock-ons, everyone considers the alignment pins provide the rotational torque.
I would be interested to hear any comments on this.
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| 55312 |
01-26-2013 06:36 AM |
Cobra Valley anti seize is great stuff. Thoughts on clamping surfaces versus torque from the pins makes my hair hurt..................
Tim
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| Cobra #3170 |
01-26-2013 02:27 PM |
Knock off Lube
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
(Post 1228661)
this is something i have never properly understood.
On the little race car project i am involved in (although not mechanically), my mech engineering colleague has assured me that the pins on a knock-on wheel are for placement of the wheel only, and that all the drive torque should be provided by the tightly clamped friction between rear face of the wheel onto the hub face, and that this load is then spread over a large surface area. Hence ive been told the drive surface should be fitted dry.
But it seems on cobra knock-ons, everyone considers the alignment pins provide the rotational torque.
I would be interested to hear any comments on this.
|
Your friend is correct, lube the threads only and sparingly. I have never had a knock off come loose or hard to get off except when the car was brand new in 1965 when I lost a left front knock off at 25 MPH on the street. The wheel stayed on Thank God, but after that I got a proper (heavy) lead hammer and started lubing the threads. Lubing the threads will help develop a greater clamp load on the hub surface too. |
| mpanten |
01-26-2013 04:03 PM |
I lightly coated the pins with a brush, lightly coated the thread on the spinner with a brush. I just used standard antiseize, no problems.
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| Randy Rosenberg |
01-26-2013 06:28 PM |
I use a hi-temp copper based anti-seize. I was told to use a "dis-similar" metal based product. No problems in 11+ years, and, yes, I only lube the threads with a tiny bit where the knock-off contacts the rim. I don't lube the pins or flat contact surface. I remove my wheels a few times every few years, but that's it. (knock off/on with a lead mallet)
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| DanEC |
01-26-2013 06:54 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
(Post 1228661)
this is something i have never properly understood.
On the little race car project i am involved in (although not mechanically), my mech engineering colleague has assured me that the pins on a knock-on wheel are for placement of the wheel only, and that all the drive torque should be provided by the tightly clamped friction between rear face of the wheel onto the hub face, and that this load is then spread over a large surface area. Hence ive been told the drive surface should be fitted dry.
But it seems on cobra knock-ons, everyone considers the alignment pins provide the rotational torque.
I would be interested to hear any comments on this.
|
For what my Civil Engr degree is worth - I think you are correct. As long as the spinner is tight (approx 350 ft lbs torque on Corvette KOs I know) the wheel is clamped on and the pins are just for alighnment and along for the ride. If ever that spinner looses it's torque (and resulting clamping tension on the wheel) those pins might keep the wheels from freewheeling on the hub but they aren't going to keep the wheel on the car. |
| DanMartin |
01-26-2013 07:14 PM |
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| Snake2998 |
01-28-2013 02:38 AM |
Thanks once again for the comments - I have decided to go for the Loctite 37617 or Tef-Gel for the thread and tapered seat as I feel that the spinner to wheel tapered seat needs lubrication to ensure proper tightening torque is reached and the spinner/wheel seat plays no significant part in the torque transfer from hub to wheel.
I will not lubricate the wheel/hub face to ensure proper torque transfer and just take the wheels off every 6 months to stop binding.
I won't be using the Cobra Valley product as it is not readily available in South Africa and postage would be a killer.
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| mdross1 |
01-28-2013 04:13 AM |
When building our car really wanting a set of pin drives and a friend who has driven Cobra's for many years, managed to talk me out of running them on the street because of pin and wheel wear.We found the PS Engineering wheels and could not be happier.
Like the idea of the lube but it would seem the wear would be accellerated.Volvo has used an Antisieze for years and never have wear issues that I'm aware of
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| MFE III |
01-28-2013 05:16 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
(Post 1228661)
all the drive torque should be provided by the tightly clamped friction between rear face of the wheel onto the hub face, and that this load is then spread over a large surface area. Hence ive been told the drive surface should be fitted dry
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Well, I learned something here - as I often do on this forum.
A bit off subject, but does anyone clean off the old anti-seize and reapply a new coat when remounting a wheel, or just add a fresh coat on top?
Matt |
| Rick Parker |
01-28-2013 07:45 PM |
If anyone thinks that the drive torque can be transfered only by the clamping force against the hub then I say remove them, use 1/2" diameter counter sink machine screws to hold the hold the adapter to the axle flange and save the weight! If it could be done, the F-1 guys would have devised a way to do it long ago. The studs, pins, or sleeve nuts are in shear and transfer the twisting torque to the wheels. The first 289's had splined adapters the splines ultimately were deemed insufficient when HP and torque were increased and the studs were adapted from other racing fitaments. You couldn't clamp the wheels tight enough otherwise. Any takers?
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| Cobra #3170 |
01-28-2013 08:26 PM |
Pins and Clamp load
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Parker
(Post 1229003)
If anyone thinks that the drive torque can be transfered only by the clamping force against the hub then I say remove them, use 1/2" diameter counter sink machine screws to hold the hold the adapter to the axle flange and save the weight! If it could be done, the F-1 guys would have devised a way to do it long ago. The studs, pins, or sleeve nuts are in shear and transfer the twisting torque to the wheels. The first 289's had splined adapters the splines ultimately were deemed insufficient when HP and torque were increased and the studs were adapted from other racing fitaments. You couldn't clamp the wheels tight enough otherwise. Any takers?
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I know of two recent cases where the drive pins on a Cobra were sheared off because the knock off was either not torqued properly or there was lubricant on the mating surfaces. You need the pins and the clamp load to retain the wheel. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1229014)
I know of two recent cases where the drive pins on a Cobra were sheared off because the knock off was either not torqued properly or there was lubricant on the mating surfaces. You need the pins and the clamp load to retain the wheel.
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I think you need the two to work together. The wheel would never be able to take the torque from the axle w/o the pins. However, the wheel needs to be held tight against the hub or the shock of applied torque would sheer the pins off.
Larry |
| Morris |
01-29-2013 09:41 AM |
Now you see why we torque our SS nuts to 600 ft lbs of torque before we go out......
Big 3/4" torque wrench......
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| KevinW |
01-29-2013 03:23 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Parker
(Post 1229003)
If anyone thinks that the drive torque can be transfered only by the clamping force against the hub then I say remove them, use 1/2" diameter counter sink machine screws to hold the hold the adapter to the axle flange and save the weight! If it could be done, the F-1 guys would have devised a way to do it long ago. The studs, pins, or sleeve nuts are in shear and transfer the twisting torque to the wheels. The first 289's had splined adapters the splines ultimately were deemed insufficient when HP and torque were increased and the studs were adapted from other racing fitaments. You couldn't clamp the wheels tight enough otherwise. Any takers?
|
I dont profess to think, I just asked a question! %/
anyhow, isnt the machine screw suggestion the preferred solution on Vintage Wheels now?
I think the 289 wheels are a different set up to the 427 wheels - these failed, ultimately, i read, for a variety of reasons. But I have an idea from somewhere that part of this is that the wire wheels had a smaller clamping area, mainly on the splines, rather than the rear wheel face:hub face. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong. |
| patrickt |
01-29-2013 03:36 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170
(Post 1229014)
I know of two recent cases where the drive pins on a Cobra were sheared off because the knock off was either not torqued properly or there was lubricant on the mating surfaces.
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Uhhh, did these cases involve the cheesy five pin jobs, that only look the same when the wheel is on, or the nice six pin stuff?:confused: |
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