Ford engine cobra vs. Chevy engine cobra- race for bragging rights?

[AL427SBF]

Per SAAC -

CSX Continuation Cobras: Current production Cobras built by Shelby to more less original standards delivered without engine and transmission.

This means the owner can install whatever motor & transmission they want and it is still a CSX Continuation Cobra, i.e. genuine Cobra. If Joe Dirt Sr. puts a cammer in his, and Joe Dirt Jr. puts a BB Chevy in his, both father and son are assured reserved parking in the Continuation Cobra section at the next SAAC gathering. If Joe Dirt Sr. says "son, you blew it with that BB Chevy", Joe Dirt Jr. can say "pops, you blew it with that cammer, suppose to be a 427 Side Oiler".

Kit Car or Replica: Any Car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

Here Kit Car and Replica are used interchangeably. So you ask the question Kit Car or Replica of what? Why a Cobra that's what. So Kit Car Cobra or Replica Cobra are valid terms to use for these 3rd party cars REGARDLESS of how close they follow the original cobra provided they have a body which approximates the original cobra. Chevy power, Ford power, Hemi power - it doesn't matter, they are all cobra replicas, any frame, suspension, brakes and driveline will do!

Whew, glad we got that ironed out before things started heading south!

[jhv48]

If SAAC said it, it must be true!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Real 1 , you must have a PH.D in Cobralogy. Because you PILE . it HIGH. and DEEP.

Yes, thank you. Actually, I do know more that the average Cobra enthusiast based on my years of experience and readings.

What I pile high are sand bags of facts against the BS that is routinely shoveled here. You own a Cobra replica as per SAAC. No issue with that.

No just because SAAC says it doesn't make it true if we are talking facts. They can make a mistake of fact just like anyone, but not likely in view of their combined experience and knowledge. Their "classifications" or "categories" are fact as far as SAAC is concerned and how they as the preeminent authority and experts in this area view things and accept these cars. You are free to personally disagree but your personal opinion means nothing to anyone on the planet except you. Revel in that.

My point is simple. Isn't there a line somewhere where a car is no longer a "Cobra replica" where it is TOTALLY DEVOID of any effort to replicate what it is supposed to be replicating i.e. a Cobra. Put another way is a plastic body shell in the shape of a Cobra all that is needed to convert a car to a "Cobra replica". I don't know where SAAC intended to draw the line by its definition as to Kit or Replica.

Case in point if I take the body off my daughters 2013 VW convertible and put a Street Beast body on it and nothing else... query ...is it now a "Cobra replica"? If I put a Street Beast body on a motor boat is it now a "Cobra replica"? Where is the line?

I think there is such a line. Where it is in any given case, I can't say but it's kinda like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography...it's hard to define in words but you know it when you see it.

[AL427SBF]

The Kit Car Cobra or Replica Cobra line is any car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind of frame, suspension, brakes and driveline - pretty simple.

Your Street Beast motor boat doesn't make the grade, last time I checked boats don't have suspension or brakes.

Your daughter's 2013 VW convertible with Street Beast body does make the grade and is a Cobra Replica provided we agree the Street Beast body does approximate the original Cobra shape. How good a Cobra Replica is it, piss-poor no doubt, but nonetheless a Cobra Replica as defined by the preeminent authority on such matters.

SAAC rules, regs and definitions are what they are, you can't pick and choose the ones you like and discard the ones you don't, it's an all or nothing proposition.

[ItBites]

Yawn...

[lovehamr]

Bragging rights with a chebbie powered cobra? There can be no bragging rights in sacrilege! Take heed ye fornicators of sheep and bovine for thou hath created an unholy union between shark and snake. For this heresy ye shall all surely perish in the flames of eternal damnation!

[ItBites]

really?

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Bragging rights with a chebbie powered cobra? There can be no bragging rights in sacrilege! Take heed ye fornicators of sheep and bovine for thou hath created an unholy union between shark and snake. For this heresy ye shall all surely perish in the flames of eternal damnation!

Feel The Power Of THOR, return to the Realm Eternal Asgard, and Cobra replicas with Chevy engines. And genuine new AC Cobra with Chevy engines from the factory.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by ItBites

really?

Yes really!

Ok ok... When you die you'll have two things to worry about.
Whether you make it to heaven or hell.
If you make it to heaven, you'll have nothing to worry about.
If you end up in hell, you le too busy partying to have time to worry, meep in mind that's where all the naughty girls will be

:lol:

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

In that case a good LS would do the job better than a Cammer and have about 200 lbs less front end weight. I think replicas are great because you can drive them and enjoy them. Why tie yourself to old designs with poor geometry and dated engine design. If you like the basic shape and fun to drive (read danger factor) have at it and make it what you want it to be. If I were doing a replica I would really go after weight reduction and a super stiff chassis with good geometry, that would be really fun to drive and still look "right" to folks as you drive by. If you are into sitting in lawn chairs at car shows then you can really go after original detail, but to me the fun of these cars is in the DRIVING.
I do not understand making an exact replica but who am I to criticize someone who is building something that they want. It is all about what makes you happy in the car world.

You know I meant to ask what do you mean "danger factor" and poor geometry? If you are really saying a "modern chassis" are "safer" than the original design what specific facts are you relying on or empirical data are you relying on? Last I checked many originals are still being vintage raced safely. The current Shelby production Cobras raced in a spec series. No one was killed and no cars failed catastrophically as far as I know. The original Cobras won a World Title and 7 SCCA A production titles. Ken Miles and Dave McDonald were killed testing "more technologically" advanced cars (the GT40 J car and an Indy car respectively) not Cobras.

In fact the failures that predominate the threads on this site all seem to be those "more advanced" "stiffer" chassis with good geometry cars you are alluding to. Geez, just last week we had someone tragically killed when a SPF rear failed.

I don't recall any threads on this site dealing with CSX failures (original or current production) causing deaths or injuries. Maybe there were but I don't recall any. Maybe you can enlighten us.

You want weight reduction? These cars already weigh only 2000 lbs. You want a stiffer chassis?. Fine. How is that "safer"? I can follow some attenuated argument as to track use but it's not safer for street use. Perhaps it improves suspension ability in competition settings on the track but that doesn't necessarily make it safer necessarliy. I could argue the opposite.

Absent a full cage your "cutting edge, stiff chassis Cobra replica" will fold like a cheap camera if hit on the street by that Honda Mini Van just like my "dated" design Cobra. You will be just as dead a me.

Why tie yourself to "dated designs"? Well .... the Cobra shape is a dated design, no?. You keep tying yourself to that one. You could improve the design of that also. It's aero characteristics suck. However, isn't the idea to replicate the Car your pretending to drive? Hell if all you want is the "body shape" but nothing else and you want the leading cutting edge technology performance then go right to the top and buy a used F1 race car and slap a Street Beast body to it. Keep the engine where it is since no need to be faithful to the original. That right there is cutting edge "Cobra replica" all right. But is it really a Cobra replica? When have we gone so far from what these cars are supposed to be that owner interpretation has pushed it the equivalent of some "f'n" modern art master piece that has absolutely no relation to the Cobra to any degree other than façade. It is a pretender wearing a Cobra Halloween mask. Nothing more.

Having a Chevy motor in a Cobra replica is sacrilege and the best and fastest way to torpedo the resale value of any Cobra replica. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is farcical.

[ItBites]

blah, blah, blah... Bruce actually races his ORIGINAL Cobra. In REALity this qualifies him as inifnitely more knowledgeable than an owner of a FAKE 1 who only polishes, reads and prostelitizes while waxing messianic about the infinite wisdom of some 'book'. Actions speak louder than words. Outside of those who are SAAC members, no one cares what SAAC says. It is just a car club, not God. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is self-delusional and farcical.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Feel The Power Of THOR, return to the Realm Eternal Asgard, and Cobra replicas with Chevy engines. And genuine new AC Cobra with Chevy engines from the factory.

CS has returned to the realm of the eternal asgard, rejoice my friends as CS takes his place behind the wheel of a chevy powered cobra to fulfill a lifelong dream not achievable as a mortal man.

[Thor maine]

A Chevy powered COBRA truly is a Chariot of the Gods

[HSC-ZL1]

I kind of laugh at the ford vs chevy argument. If the information is correct the first V8 powered AC was a chevy that CS was on track with back in 57 or 58. He took that idea and created his version with the only manufacturer that would give him motors. Ford. He went on to create the cobra name and fame. I built my KIT with a big block 427 chevy ZL1. I never try to pass it off as an original. I do get a little tired of people who keep asking why I put a Chevy in a ford. I ask them where they see a Ford? To my knowledge I don't think Ford EVER built an AC. They did supply ford motors for CS's cars that were built by AC. I think at this point we can all agree that they are pretty much hot-rod versions of an AC. I personally would drool all over any of CS's original 260,289,&427 cobra's and the history he created with them. beyond that they are all hot-rod versions of the AC. If a kit is done well there is probably a story behind the builders IDEA of his version of the car. Instead of sneering why not ask why he did it that way and enjoy the ART of Hot-Rodding.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by ItBites

blah, blah, blah... Bruce actually races his ORIGINAL Cobra. In REALity this qualifies him as inifnitely more knowledgeable than an owner of a FAKE 1 who only polishes, reads and prostelitizes while waxing messianic about the infinite wisdom of some 'book'. Actions speak louder than words. Outside of those who are SAAC members, no one cares what SAAC says. It is just a car club, not God. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is self-delusional and farcical.

Now there's a powerfully keen opening. "Blah, Blah, Blah"..Really?
Look, aside from your obvious little temper tantrum and lame failed attempts at insult which are consistent with the judgment of someone who decides to put a Chevy engine in a Cobra replica your equation of ownership = instant imbued knowledge is no longer surprisingly stupid statement from you. Its fully expected from you based on your engine choice and all your previous post content. Your latest post is crowned with your new gem that SAAC is "just a car club". You are at least consistent.

I would try and help you but I'll just let you enjoy your bliss.

HSC: Your information is incorrect.

Cheers

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

A Chevy powered COBRA truly is a Chariot of the Gods

Time to put the booze down and double down on the meds.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You know I meant to ask what do you mean "danger factor" and poor geometry? If you are really saying a "modern chassis" are "safer" than the original design what specific facts are you relying on or empirical data are you relying on? Last I checked many originals are still being vintage raced safely. The current Shelby production Cobras raced in a spec series. No one was killed and no cars failed catastrophically as far as I know. The original Cobras won a World Title and 7 SCCA A production titles. Ken Miles and Dave McDonald were killed testing "more technologically" advanced cars (the GT40 J car and an Indy car respectively) not Cobras.

In fact the failures that predominate the threads on this site all seem to be those "more advanced" "stiffer" chassis with good geometry cars you are alluding to. Geez, just last week we had someone tragically killed when a SPF rear failed.

I don't recall any threads on this site dealing with CSX failures (original or current production) causing deaths or injuries. Maybe there were but I don't recall any. Maybe you can enlighten us.

You want weight reduction? These cars already weigh only 2000 lbs. You want a stiffer chassis?. Fine. How is that "safer"? I can follow some attenuated argument as to track use but it's not safer for street use. Perhaps it improves suspension ability in competition settings on the track but that doesn't necessarily make it safer necessarliy. I could argue the opposite.

Absent a full cage your "cutting edge, stiff chassis Cobra replica" will fold like a cheap camera if hit on the street by that Honda Mini Van just like my "dated" design Cobra. You will be just as dead a me.

Why tie yourself to "dated designs"? Well .... the Cobra shape is a dated design, no?. You keep tying yourself to that one. You could improve the design of that also. It's aero characteristics suck. However, isn't the idea to replicate the Car your pretending to drive? Hell if all you want is the "body shape" but nothing else and you want the leading cutting edge technology performance then go right to the top and buy a used F1 race car and slap a Street Beast body to it. Keep the engine where it is since no need to be faithful to the original. That right there is cutting edge "Cobra replica" all right. But is it really a Cobra replica? When have we gone so far from what these cars are supposed to be that owner interpretation has pushed it the equivalent of some "f'n" modern art master piece that has absolutely no relation to the Cobra to any degree other than façade. It is a pretender wearing a Cobra Halloween mask. Nothing more.

Having a Chevy motor in a Cobra replica is sacrilege and the best and fastest way to torpedo the resale value of any Cobra replica. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is farcical.

You must be a lawyer and not have any technical background at all, to call a an original Cobra safe in a crash is absurd. What I meant by danger factor was the difficulty of driving a 2000 pound + car with 500 or so horsepower on street tires or even race tires. You had better have quick hands and know what you are doing to get into the throttle in one of these cars.
The power- to- weight ratio alone is enough of a problem. Couple that with a short wheel base and you have a recipe for disaster. Do you really think a continuation car is any safer than many of the replicas? If you do, you don't have a clue about crash safety. Vintage racing is a poor example. You have an accident, you get banned for a year in many series. Nobody wants to crash a valuable car and if they do it is usually minor. When it isn't, they are hurt or killed. I love the shape of the Cobra body. I have had mine for almost 49 years and it is unchanged. I just don't like the design of the suspension because it limits what the car could be with that light weight. I drove my first winged Formula car in 1972 and what an eye opening experience! Brakes that were linear, suspension that worked properly and great cornering power. I realized then that a Cobra could be a lot better than Ford, and Shelby American made it in 1965. I would not use safety in a sentence about any original or continuation car. The main frame rails are under your a$$. How do you think you will fare in a side crash? You will probably be killed. How about front crash? The engine will join you in the passenger compartment; no crush zone, and no steering column collapse feature. A serious crash will probably kill you because you are not protected with a good belt system or air bags. The improvements I was alluding to are for dynamic handling NOT safety.
I was supervisor of passenger car front structure at one time in my career at Ford and our unit had to design the structure to meet 35 mph crash standards. I was the body engineering program manager for the 89 T-Bird program where we had to meet seat belt retention, roll over, roof crush and front and rear crash standards, so I have an idea of what happens in a crash.
Later on, I was chief passenger car chassis engineer for Ford and then Director of commercial truck engineering. All this bloviating is to establish my credentials to comment on the original Cobra design. I knew Klaus Arning (designer of the 427 Cobra suspension) and I am sure he would agree with all this were he still with us. You must not be exploring the limits of your car because if you were, you would see how bad it is compared with your Ford GT, one of the best handling and safest cars out there.
Too bad you are not in California because I would love to give you a ride in an original car that actually works dynamically. I had a 1963 Stingray with fuel injection, racing suspension and brake package when I bought my Cobra in 1965 and it handled way better than the Cobra as delivered.
The Cobra's acceleration and braking capability were so superior though, that I was happy at the time.
FE engines, don't get me started. At least the new blocks and cylinder heads are better than the very dated “side oiler” design. The majority of people with replicas have them to drive and enjoy not to try and fool someone into thinking it is a “real one” so why not have a modern engine that is reliable, light and makes great power?

[REAL 1]

You must not be lawyer because you obviously didn't carefully read what I said. I did not in anyway say an original or continuation Cobra was "safe". What I did say it is no more dangerous on the street than any "rigid" chassis replica. The "superior" geometry design of modern suspension mean zip as far as safety on the street.

What I also said there are example after example of the new "modern" replica failing in design and construction, with the latest tragic example last week. I haven't seen similar examples of failure with originals or continuation cars. Not saying there haven't been just haven't seen it here. I invited others to enlighten me as the CSX failures they know about causing injury.

Pick your replica. Just name it and take an original Cobra or continuation Cobra and T bone it with your average SUV and regardless of where the frame rails are you are just as dead in any of them. Same for any other impact..take your pick...front rear, 1/2 front etc...Chances are you are not fairing well in either a modern replica with its modern chassis or a Cobra orignial or continuation.

From a dynamic standpoint for track use I pretty much conceded that advances in design would improve handling. You are still left with a 90" wheel base and tremendous power and I don't need to be an engineer to know that still presents issues that require more caution and judicious throttle application than with a longer more stable wheelbase.

I am impressed with your background and technical experience based on your "bloviating". I would love to see pics of your Cobra. I'll look it up in the Registry put out by that club, whats it called again, it's just a car club. I can't recall but I'll grab that book they put out and look up your car.

[Jamo]

Okie dokie kids, I think that about covers it.

Evan...oh, never mind.