Continuation Cobras & SAAC

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 55312

Not to be too picky here but this part of the SAAC diatribe has me confused.

The only difference between original Cobras and CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars is the time frame in which they were built (1). However, all three factors separate Shelby’s current cars from all the rest of the Cobra replicas, AC MK IVs, COB/COX continuation cars, etc. So, to our way of thinking, the current crop of Cobras are genuine but are not original.

In 1965 I worked for a Ford dealership 18 miles from Sharon, CT. I worked on a small block COB Cobra that was right hand side drive. That car was ORIGINAL ! At the time, it belonged to the nephew of the Dealership's owner. A few years ago I traced it through the SAAC registry and it's still around but has been converted to left hand drive and the last I knew, it's back in CA. My understanding was the COB designation was used for exported Cobra's and this one had been exported to the UK and ended up back in the US, in San Diego, where the owner's nephew bought it. The real irony was it was traded by the nephew for a Porsche 914 Targa (VW) !! He was tired of worrying about denting the Aluminum body.............

Tim

Tim, a lot of what you mention is correct. With respect to Cobras built and sold by AC Cars that were not part of the Shelby contract, the COB designation indicated right hand drive, i.e. a car for the UK (hence the B, for Britain) while the COX VIN indicated left hand drive, for Europe or Canada (hence the X, for eXport out of Britain). The COB car you recall, 6047, has been back in Europe for the past few years.

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade. At the time, it was PC to call it a shovel instead. Otherwise, one might have pointed out that out was AC Cars, Ltd. that created the AEX, BEX, COX, COB, and CSX chassis numbers (among others), which were simply a series of alterations in specification to the original AC Ace designated by A, B, and C to highlight the changes. The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK. Read up on the legal battle between Shelby and Brian Angliss of AK, and note that Angliss built a number of cars using a CSX 3xxx VIN, using the theory, "if Shelby can appropriate what was AC's, AC can do the same to what was Shelby's."

The bottom line is that the newer Cobras, whether built by Shelby in the U.S. or AK in the U.K., lack the cooperative Anglo-American production model used in the construction of the 60's versions, and are therefore fundamentally different even if their specifications are similar.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade.

Well, there you go. From the SAAC Cobra Registrar. Perfect!

And hopefully, with any nod to historical accuracy, any "liberty taken" (aka "nonsense") will be removed from the Registry in its entirety.

[55312]

Thanks Ned

That all makes sense.

I just remember how blindingly fast that thing was and never forgot it! First real rocket I got to work on. Made my 55 Vicky with the 312 feel like a boat anchor...........

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK.

Finally. A statement by someone other than me that AC would not have continued without Shelby. The Cobra was Shelby's influence. The Ace would have withered away without his "partnership" if you want to call it that. That is the PC version of what we today call a supplier relationship.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Finally. A statement by someone other than me that AC would not have continued without Shelby. The Cobra was Shelby's influence. The Ace would have withered away without his "partnership" if you want to call it that. That is the PC version of what we today call a supplier relationship.

Ned post read,
"The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK."

I don't find that Ned says AC Cars would have withered away without Shelby?
If you make that assumption it would be possible to assume that Shelby would have withered away without the efforts of AC Cars.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

If you make that assumption it would be possible to assume that Shelby would have withered away without the efforts of AC Cars.

Shelby would have found another platform for his racing vehicle so Shelby would have continued. Whether that effort would have been successful I would believe not so much but recall the open roadster was not so much a success. It was the roadster rebodied into the coupe that won. And by that time Shelby's attention was mostly focused on the Ford gt program

The Shelby / AC relationship was symbiotic . Neither probably would have flourished without the other

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Tim, a lot of what you mention is correct. With respect to Cobras built and sold by AC Cars that were not part of the Shelby contract, the COB designation indicated right hand drive, i.e. a car for the UK (hence the B, for Britain) while the COX VIN indicated left hand drive, for Europe or Canada (hence the X, for eXport out of Britain). The COB car you recall, 6047, has been back in Europe for the past few years.

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade. At the time, it was PC to call it a shovel instead. Otherwise, one might have pointed out that out was AC Cars, Ltd. that created the AEX, BEX, COX, COB, and CSX chassis numbers (among others), which were simply a series of alterations in specification to the original AC Ace designated by A, B, and C to highlight the changes. The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK. Read up on the legal battle between Shelby and Brian Angliss of AK, and note that Angliss built a number of cars using a CSX 3xxx VIN, using the theory, "if Shelby can appropriate what was AC's, AC can do the same to what was Shelby's."

The bottom line is that the newer Cobras, whether built by Shelby in the U.S. or AK in the U.K., lack the cooperative Anglo-American production model used in the construction of the 60's versions, and are therefore fundamentally different even if their specifications are similar.

Really? So SAAC was being PC? This explains all the effort to register the CSX 4000 Cobras and the entire chapter devoted to the car which discusses the "replica" issue and the explanations sets forth which are factual and logical. Explains the logical definitions as used both in the body and in the Appendix.

So, is the SAAC "3000 Registar" speaking for SAAC here? Is this an official statement?

Regardless, fact is not even the CSX 3000 "Registar" can change the facts, despite his bias for the original cars

So is the 3000 Registar now saying SAAC really didn't print what they really thought and didn't mean what they printed about the current production Cobras and the definitions that apply to them but nevertheless collected how much selling how many copies of the Registry? Please clarify.

So if SAAC is no longer concerned with the current production Cobras maybe Continuation owners should stop registering their cars with SAAC for the next Registry? I guess SAAC doesn't even need a Continuation Series Registar then? Hmmm. Hell, if SAAC is printing stuff they really didn't mean (did they?) because they are "PC" who needs the Registry?

So what is the next Reigistry going to say Ned? The current production Shelby Cobras aren't Shelby Cobras? Puhleese. Really? Why wait. Publish a statement now.

Oh by the way....AC doesn't own the rights to "CSX" designations.. Do they? Current production Cobras don't need the "AC" Paradigm to be a genuine Shelby Cobra. Period. Originals do. At least according the defintions of the Registry as much as we can rely on them I guess.

Fact is Team Shelby does have a broad scope. Fact is SAAC is still soliciting CSX Continuation registrations, aren't they? Fact is SAAC' is currently taking the position they are broadening the scope of cars accepted in membership not narrowing the scope.

Current statement from the SAAC website:

Welcome to the Shelby American Automobile Club. SAAC is an international organization that was founded in 1975. It was originally dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of the world championship cars from Shelby American and the cars they have inspired from 1962 to today. Those goals have not changed. Ownership is not required for membership—just enthusiasm.
Every large automobile marque has at least one organization for owners and enthusiasts.

The cars that Carroll Shelby built between 1962 and 1970 are no different. SAAC has been in existence since 1975 and has published award winning magazines, newsletters and books since then. The club is recognized as the undisputed authority on the history and legacy of these cars. Carroll Shelby stopped building cars in 1970, but enthusiasm for them increased every year after that. The trouble was that, aside from a handful of owners, nobody knew very much about these cars. And even then, their knowledge was based only on their car and a handful of others they had seen. Shelbys and Cobras weren’t exactly plentiful. With everyone asking questions, one of the goals of the club became researching the production history and specifications of these cars and sharing what was learned with members. In the 1990s and beyond, Shelby became aware of the increased interest and subsequent rise in value of the cars and began building another generation of them—both Cobras and Shelby Mustangs. SAAC was originally set up to cater to the cars Carroll Shelby created and raced — Cobras, GT350s, GT500s and Ford GTs — but since its inception the club has broadened its parameters to accept virtually all high performance Ford-powered cars including Tigers, Mangustas and Panteras, Boss 302, 351 and 429 Mustangs, AC Mk IVs, Cobra 4000s, Mustangs of every year including the latest generation of Shelby GTs and GT500s, Griffiths, Italias, Galaxies, Fairlanes, Comets and yes—even Cobra kit cars. While SAAC does not accord “equal” status to all these other vehicles, it nonetheless welcomes them (and their owners) into the club. The reason for this is simple: SAAC has no ownership requirements, so in that sense everyone is welcome to participate. Many members own more than one hobby car and while that first car is usually a Cobra or a Shelby, often the second vehicle is some other Ford performance car. So it is the membership which has actually broadened the club’s scope and determined what cars are accepted at club events.....



Shelby's been dead how many years now? 3 1/2 years? Suits been over for how many years? 7 years? Seems like SAAC hasn't hasn't changed what they said one bit.

Seems like the 3000 Registar has an axe to grind.

I don't need the 3000 Registar to tell me what the current production Cobras are. The facts and law do. Oh yeah, so does the World Registry in black and white and the former and current SAAC statement about the club.

BTW I think the 40th Edition of the SAAC World Registry did a great job dealing with the Current Production Cobras and did so logically, correctly and fairly.

[RodKnock]

You started with three...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Facts, law and World Registry.

OOPS! Lost one of those pegs on your chair...no Registry anymore.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The facts and law do.

What facts? If it's not an original, then it's a replica. And if it's a replica, and it obviously is, then it can't be genuine, real or authentic. Those are the facts.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You started with three...



OOPS! Lost one of those pegs on your chair...no Registry anymore.



What facts? If it's not an original, then it's a replica. And if it's a replica, and it obviously is, then it can't be genuine, real or authentic. Those are the facts.

Thinks so? Based on what the "3000 Registar" said above Obviously doesn't take much for you to buy in. There's un-biased opinion. If Ned wants to tell you the sky is pink and if you want to buy it go right ahead. A "3000 Registar" can't change facts and law nor does it seem the statements of "his" club (then or now) even comport with his current statements. But if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy following the "3000 Registar" have at it.

Not me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Thinks so?

Not me.

"Me" doesn't have a single thing to do with the Registry, which you have always relied on to support your weak, and now weakening, position.

A replica cannot be genuine.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Thinks so? Based on what the "3000 Registar" said There's un-biased opinion.

Not me.

Remember, "SAAC's position," per Ned.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Remember, "SAAC's position," per Ned.

Gee then SAAC should immediately correct the Registry and their statement on their Web site as "per Ned". Still reads consistently 7 years later.

In the meantime, I'll go with the current SAAC statement on their website and the Registry.

You can go with Ned.



P.S. A "replica" can be genuine. Sure it can. Read the Registry.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

In the meantime, I'll go with the current SAAC statement on their website and the Registry.

Curious...what statement on their website? Do you have a link for it?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Gee then SAAC should immediately correct the Registry and their statement on their Web site as "per Ned". Still reads consistently 7 years later.

In the meantime, I'll go with the current SAAC statement on their website and the Registry.

You can go with Ned.



P.S. A "replica" can be genuine. Sure it can. Read the Registry.

I didn't know SAAC publishes a Registry every week, month or even every year? You do realize that publishing the Registry is a monumental task done by volunteers. They publish roughly every decade, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, definitions can change over time. New words are created all the time. The dictionary and Wiki change constantly.

But one thing is for sure. A replica cannot be genuine. That is pure unadulterated logic. And I'll stick with logic.

[jhv48]

He sure gets pissy when the facts turn against him.

Good job, guys! You yank on the strings, and we get to watch him dance.

This thread took an ugly turn a few pages ago. Knives, watches, etc. Glad it finally got back on track. The defense never rests.

[Nedsel]

[quote=REAL 1;1366392]



"So if SAAC is no longer concerned with the current production Cobras maybe Continuation owners should stop registering their cars with SAAC for the next Registry? I guess SAAC doesn't even need a Continuation Series Registar then? Hmmm. Hell, if SAAC is printing stuff they really didn't mean (did they?) because they are "PC" who needs the Registry?

So what is the next Reigistry going to say Ned? The current production Shelby Cobras aren't Shelby Cobras? Puhleese. Really? Why wait. Publish a statement now. "

Rather than defending the same position again and again from (slightly) different vantage points, you may wish to re-read exactly what I said, which is that SAAC has ceded control of anything having to do with the later cars to the organization that built them. Nowhere did I suggest SAAC doesn't welcome them. Nowhere did I say they are not considered Shelby Cobras. For everyone's benefit, stop being such an arrogant and touchy twit and take the time to understand what is being said rather than continue to endlessly defend the same turf even when it hasn't been attacked.

[fordracing65]

I love those words, arrogant and touchy twit, well said...

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I love those words, arrogant and touchy twit, well said...

I'm surprised you know what "arrogant" means. On second thought you probably just took out Websters.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm surprised you know what "arrogant" means. On second thought you probably just took out Websters.

LOL, Websters is for old geezers like you, I'm a young buck, I use SIRI, OLD MAN,,,, do you know what douch bag means, if it's not in your paper Websters, use Google...

[REAL 1]

[quote=Nedsel;1366424]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

"So if SAAC is no longer concerned with the current production Cobras maybe Continuation owners should stop registering their cars with SAAC for the next Registry? I guess SAAC doesn't even need a Continuation Series Registar then? Hmmm. Hell, if SAAC is printing stuff they really didn't mean (did they?) because they are "PC" who needs the Registry?

So what is the next Reigistry going to say Ned? The current production Shelby Cobras aren't Shelby Cobras? Puhleese. Really? Why wait. Publish a statement now. "

Rather than defending the same position again and again from (slightly) different vantage points, you may wish to re-read exactly what I said, which is that SAAC has ceded control of anything having to do with the later cars to the organization that built them. Nowhere did I suggest SAAC doesn't welcome them. Nowhere did I say they are not considered Shelby Cobras. For everyone's benefit, stop being such an arrogant and touchy twit and take the time to understand what is being said rather than continue to endlessly defend the same turf even when it hasn't been attacked.

Oh, thanks for clarifying. So it was all an honest misunderstanding. Gee I thought so. Then we agree the SAAC statements both then and now and the Registry which is consistent with those statments do clearly and honestly set forth SAAC's view on the current production Cobras (Continuation series). Glad we cleared that all up.

Yeah, I'll try and take your advice about the "arrogant" and touchy "twit stuff" and read more closely and you can follow suit and stop being a pompous a$$ and condescending towards the current production Shelby Cobras and write more clearly what you mean.