Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by blykins

Joe, that's not a hard thing to do buddy....

Check out Computerworks' car.

This isn't difficult.....I bet there are 20-30 on Club Cobra alone. Find a continuation series CSX or a Kirkham, with a painted aluminum body, skip the fancy billet stuff, put an FE in it with a Toploader.

Easy.

Wrong, read the SAI description, you'll see even they say the 289 and 427 are still produced today
using improved materials and components. Same applies to Kirkham ...

... ergo, not an "exact" copy of a 60's cobra.

[moore_rb]

I LOVE this forum....

Start a thread about engines... It descends to "real vs replica"

Start a thread about Billboard tires... Nope, it's now about real versus replica.

Mirrors? Real versus replica...

Seats? Real versus replica

Stripes versus no stripes? Nope- It's Real stripes, versus replica stripes

Kirkham versus Shelby Continuation? Real Chicken versus replica egg (or, real egg versus replica chicken... )

Side pipes versus undercar exhaust? Real versus replica

Boxers versus Briefs? Real versus replica.

Ford versus Chevy (or versus Dodge v10 )? Real versus replica.

Ginger versus MaryAnn? Real versus replica.

Real boobs versus Silicone? Real versus replica (hmmmm, wait a minute, Maybe that's a VALID "real" versus "replica" discussion )



I LOVE this forum...

[blykins]

Oh please.

The fact of the matter is, there are *new* Cobras, that if they were parked right beside of the restored original that they were copying, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I guess if you wanted to ask the owners to remove the bodies from the frames, cut a section of the frame tube off and send it to a lab to check if the steel was the same alloy, then you could see a difference.........ROFL

Then there are Cobras that if you parked them besides the originals, it would be night/day difference. Just like that Fiero and the Lamborghini.

Again, not saying that there is anything wrong with that.....you want what you want. But this does, in fact, go back to Lance's original post....the engine plays a very big role in how accurate that replica is. Most of my customers want FE's and SBF's. I do build Chevy engines (not many), but not once have I been asked to build a Chevy engine for a Cobra. Besides, everyone knows that you can go to Walmart and buy a SBC......

[Bernica]

I suppose one could ask Lance or Brent to build an EXACT FE engine, sourcing all OEM parts right down to the rod bolts and ignore the improvements that have been made over the past 40+ years, but then what do you have? And would you be satisfied knowing that you ignored all those improvements?

Like I said earlier, "whatever lights your pipes!"

[Joe's Garage]

You said "exact copy" I didn't. The fact is there is no exact copy of a 60's cobra out there, only varying degrees of replication. I expect the list of improved components used by Kirkham and SAI is not trivial and could be ID'd simply by popping the hood or a close look in the cockpit.

BTW, your analogy of "replica" vs. "kit car" is a false argument. These cars are not sold complete and need to be finished by the buyer and then registered following special DMV provisions for kit cars/component cars. They ARE kit cars, every last damn one of them. True, some do a better job at getting closer to the mark than others but that does not make it not a kit car. Believe the seller/marketing hype if you like, but it has no foundation in truth.

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

BTW, your analogy of "replica" vs. "kit car" is a false argument. These cars are not sold complete and need to be finished by the buyer and then registered following special DMV provisions for kit cars/component cars..

Not always. Mine is titled and registered following the DMV provisions for replicas.

[blykins]

Strain a gnat and swallow a camel.....

You know what the general population considers to be a "kit car" and I do too.

[RodKnock]

IMO, there are no exact copies or replicas.

The Kirkham's (and Shelby's by extension) are on record that they designed their body with subtle cues that vary from an original 1960's Cobra. They designed and built them that way for a reason, so they would never be confused with an original. Also, the Kirkham alloy body is .059" thick whereas the original is/was .050" thick. These are just the basics.

Even the latest turnkey recreations, from Shelby, called "Competition Cobras," from Denbeste, Drew Serb & Kirkham, while close with all sorts of NOS and reproduction parts won't be exact copies. These are the facts and they're indisputable.

The knowledgable and experts of the marque will be able to tell the difference. Schmucks like me? Not so much.

Back to Cobra engines. Cammer all the way!

[blykins]

Sorta proves my point if you have to get the dial calipers out and measure aluminum thickness because the .009" difference isn't discernable by eye or hand....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Sorta proves my point if you have to get the dial calipers out and measure aluminum thickness because the .009" difference isn't discernable by eye or hand....

No, it doesn't prove your point. Of course, you would use that one particular point from my post and ignore the rest to form your hypothesis. Have seen an original side-by-side with a Shelby/Kirkham replica? I have, a few times.

If you've seen the two (original, Kirkham/Shelby) side-by-side, it's obvious to the more-than-casual observer. Besides cues of the exterior body, materials such as seats, shocks, wheels, knobs, gauges, batteries, roll bars, exhaust, rivets, etc. It goes on and on.

[blykins]

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Considering no two original CSX cars were built exactly alike, I think there has to be a little "tolerance" there....but the tolerance isn't so +/- that it includes SBC engines and Viper V-10's. Shelby had his hand in the Dodge Omni GLH-S as well, but that doesn't give us license to all put 4-cylinders in our Cobras....but that's some of the logic that gets passed around here.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

You can call them anything you want, copies, reproductions, replicas, clones, tributes, kit cars, etc. I don't really care. It's all the same to me. Folks invent/use new adjectives to make themselves feel better. BUT, there aren't any exact copies. Period.

"More exact"? "More authentic"? That's some funny use of the English language.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by blykins

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Considering no two original CSX cars were built exactly alike, I think there has to be a little "tolerance" there....but the tolerance isn't so +/- that it includes SBC engines and Viper V-10's. Shelby had his hand in the Dodge Omni GLH-S as well, but that doesn't give us license to all put 4-cylinders in our Cobras....but that's some of the logic that gets passed around here.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

By your "logic" that you're passing around here, 90%+ of the cars owned by members here are lowly kit cars. Outside of the tiny minority that own alloy bodied "replicas", all of the rest are composite bodied cars with various mixes of chassis, suspension and miscellaneous other departures from the original cars that disqualify them from being replicas. In that case, WTH difference does it make what powertrain we choose when we're all driving "kit cars" anyway?
You decide that engine brand is the deal breaker, but to others it might be wheelbase, stance, appearance, suspension, rollbars or any of a dozen other criteria. Or maybe it doesn't matter at all. Like everyone else you're welcome to your opinion - just don't try to push it as the gold standard criteria of judgement.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

Then I own both. I bought a Kirkham roller and had a shop install an engine and transmission, which I had purchased separately. And then I registered it under the CA SPCNS (kit car) program. And, it looks kinda like a Cobra, at least to me.

[blykins]

I've never professed to being an English scholar.

Maybe I should have used "exacter"? I didn't know the point of this thread was to point out grammar flaws. Was that point made to try and detract from my credibility? Seems a little out of place.

BTW, I'm not on an Evan kick. I don't agree with him in the fact that continuation Cobras (or Kirkhams) are the real thing. However, I think if your goal is to make a replica, you don't start off with a Viper V-10.

[Bernica]

Seems pretty simple. You can't go back in time and pluck an original. Whatever is built today is, at best, a "loyal representation" of back in the day and many should be respected for doing just that. That's the way it is and some folks need to just settle with that fact, IMHO.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

I've never professed to being an English scholar.

Maybe I should have used "exacter"? I didn't know the point of this thread was to point out grammar flaws. Was that point made to try and detract from my credibility? Seems a little out of place.

BTW, I'm not on an Evan kick. I don't agree with him in the fact that continuation Cobras (or Kirkhams) are the real thing. However, I think if your goal is to make a replica, you don't start off with a Viper V-10.

You seem to me to be on an "Evan kick." Just tangentially. He wanted to define a Shelby CSX4000 as something other than replica. A real authentic Shelby Cobra. You're trying to define what is or isn't a Cobra replica. In his honor, I'll borrow one of Evan's favorite expressions. "It's all in the Registry."

Page 30 and I quote, "Kit Car OR Replica. Any car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using ANY kind of frame, suspension, brakes and drivetrain."

Thor has a Cobra replica and he has a Chevy engine. Jeff McCabe, one of our NorCal members has an electric engine, he has a Cobra replica. Replicas are replicas. If someone wants to use a dune buggy with a Cobra body, then it's still a Cobra replica.

Notwithstanding SAAC's definition, everyone here can have an opinion of what is or isn't a replica. No worries.

[*13*]

If we're looking for numbers in this thread, count me in for an engine that closely replicates what the particular car in question had. My first real lust with the cobra came at a gas station where a cobra was filling up next to me. It was the sound coming out of that beast that changed me forever.
Research led me deeper into the rabbit hole. The look, the sound, the body lines. It all captivated me. The only reason, for me, to build a replica was to replicate the look & feel of a car, as close as possible. While even mine, is far from a perfect replication, it gets me close to the dream. I can't imagine placing anything under the hood that wouldn't do that. I'm not a Ford guy any more than I am a Mopar or Chevy guy. I just don't see the sense in building a cobra with anything other than what they were powered by.
At the same time, I know we all get into this for different reasons & with different ideas. I respect that.

[Joe's Garage]

427/428 cubes? How many hard core FE guys meet that criteria - not many.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

427/428 cubes? How many hard core FE guys meet that criteria - not many.

I think you are wrong. Plenty of guys here that can prove it. You are trolling for someone to take the bait, I think.