Contemporary

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

It looks like a good deal for the purchaser, though as a "barn find" it's difficult to assess or understand how much work the car needs.

The misappropriated VIN, OTOH, could be a big problem.

Only if you consider committing a Federal crime "a big problem."

What a POS. Sorry, but $27K for "that" should be a Federal crime.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

that VIN is a problem as it was taken from a different vintage Ford.

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

The misappropriated VIN, OTOH, could be a big problem.

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Only if you consider committing a Federal crime "a big problem."

It's only a federal crime to forge (or misappropriate) a 17 digit, NHTSA coded VIN number.. and that 17 digit format did not become federal law until 1981, and component car companies have always been exempt from the law since it's inception... Which is why most component Cobras get a non-NHTSA compliant, state-issued number when they get registered.

The number stamped on this car, and is being called the "VIN" is an older Ford number format (this particular number came from a base 66 Mustang hardtop)

But, as long as the number on the car matches the number on the title document, most states are going to issue a transfer title without batting an eyelash...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

It's only a federal crime to forge (or misappropriate) a 17 digit, NHTSA coded VIN number.. and that 17 digit format did not become federal law until 1981, and component car companies have always been exempt from the law since it's inception... Which is why most component Cobras get a non-NHTSA compliant, state-issued number when they get registered.

The number stamped on this car, and is being called the "VIN" is an older Ford number format (this particular number came from a base 66 Mustang hardtop)

But, as long as the number on the car matches the number on the title document, most states are going to issue a transfer title without batting an eyelash...

No, VIN swapping is illegal. You cannot take a VIN tag from '66 Ford Mustang and rivet it to another vehicle. A state may register it, but that doesn't make it legal. You can't rely on your local DMV employee to be an arbiter of what's legal or not. Once a VIN tag is removed from a car, then the ViN tag must be destroyed. And component cars don't have an exemption.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

It's only a federal crime to forge (or misappropriate) a 17 digit, NHTSA coded VIN number.. and that 17 digit format did not become federal law until 1981, and component car companies have always been exempt from the law since it's inception... Which is why most component Cobras get a non-NHTSA compliant, state-issued number when they get registered.

The number stamped on this car, and is being called the "VIN" is an older Ford number format (this particular number came from a base 66 Mustang hardtop)

But, as long as the number on the car matches the number on the title document, most states are going to issue a transfer title without batting an eyelash...

the swap itself is indeed considered illegal, as it uses an "existing" VIN taken from another car. However, I have known a few early Cobra replica owners who used a 1960's style VIN, but it was a number sequence that was never actually produced by Ford (IE: a number after the end of official production), thereby making it "creative" but not illegal, as the number used never existed on an actual production car. Still a slippery slope, but technically not a Federal Offense


Bill S

PS: For Google searches in the future "Contemporary Classic 110" & "6F07T370386"

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

the swap itself is indeed considered illegal, as it uses an "existing" VIN taken from another car. However, I have known a few early Cobra replica owners who used a 1960's style VIN, but it was a number sequence that was never actually produced by Ford (IE: a number after the end of official production), thereby making it "creative" but not illegal, as the number used never existed on an actual production car. Still a slippery slope, but technically not a Federal Offense


Bill S

PS: For Google searches in the future "Contemporary Classic 110" & "6F07T370386"

I'm no lawyer, but if the owner's intent is to deceive or defraud a buyer or the DMV, whether to lower the fees & taxes paid at registration or to register/sell a Cobra under some false pretense, then being creative with the VIN still is illegal IMO.

However, taking an OEM tag from a '66 Mustang and riveting it on another car, component or not, is illegal.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

taking an OEM tag from a '66 Mustang and riveting it on another car, component or not, is illegal.

But that's not what is going on with this particular car.

Here is a 66 Mustang Number plate:



Click here to see the number for the car above, decoded:

vinwiz.com VIN Decoder

and, here is the number plate from this Contemporary Cobra:



Clearly not a 66 Mustang plate- Only the number format is similar (which could purely be 100% coincidence, as MrMustang stated above):

The "F" in this number could mean "Florida", not "Ford"... Who knows?

The Seller said that the number 6F07T370386 on this car matches the number listed on the Florida title document (which lists the car as a 66 Cobra). This means that transferring this title (in most normal states, but not Commie-fornia) would be as easy as walking into the Motor Vehicle office with the notarized Florida title, your driver's license, a proof of insurance card, and the 12 or so dollars that the title transfer is going to cost. You'd be in and out of there in 20 minutes with your license plate and registration...

and once you've got your license plate and registration, you can hit the road and DRIVE...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

It's only a federal crime to forge (or misappropriate) a 17 digit, NHTSA coded VIN number.. and that 17 digit format did not become federal law until 1981, and component car companies have always been exempt from the law since it's inception... .

Just so you know, VIN tampering has been on the Federal books since 1954

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Just so you know, VIN tampering has been on the Federal books since 1954

Yes, but prior to the NHTSA standard published in 1981, all the relevant sections of legacy US code (18 USC. 511, and 18 USC 2321, primarily) were compromised by Theseus' Paradox....

That's essentially why the 17 digit US VIN standard was published in the first place. There were too many loopholes in the US code to legally isolate criminal intent (which is already hard enough to establish in fraud cases).

Which is why legacy, pre-81 VIN numbers are pretty much disregarded by the legal system (except in substantive cases of Collector Car forgery, or when used as supporting statutes in cases of classic vehicle theft)

We're all going down a very different rabbit-hole here- This car has a title, with a number that matches the number attached to the vehicle. 99.9% of the state Motor Vehicle Department offices in this great land are going to issue a title, without challenge, reservation, or trepidation...

Why is that so hard to simply accept as what it is...???

This is not an observation pointed at any one person (or persons) around here, but since I've joined this forum, I have seen a large number of episodes where guys are prone to blindly swinging sharp sticks, trying to poke black bears in dark rooms... I don't get it...

It's a kit car, for Christ's sake. It's not a '28 Duesenberg.

Jumping to the conclusion that someone committed deliberate fraud, in order to "cheat the taxman", by using a stolen VIN number off of a Mustang...?

I mean, take two steps back from that statement, and then take second look at it... Does it seem any more absurd now?

Suspecting that someone committed deliberate fraud when they first registered this car (probably back in the early to mid 1980's, 30+ years ago, for crying out loud) is nothing but pure speculation, overlapping woeful flights of fancy...

Remind me- How many Cobra replica buyers have ACTUALLY been subsequently arrested and charged with fraud, after taking possession of their new toy, when attempting to do the title transfer?

Boy, this has been fun (as most of the threads on this forum usually become, once the original topic is completely exhausted, and tossed in the trash bin)

this car was still a good deal- If I had been in the market, I would have bought it....

And then, you all could have had a good laugh when the Men in Black came and hauled me away in handcuffs for trafficking in stolen Mustang VIN numbers, and for driving a 427 Cobra with a greasy undercarriage, and 5-lug hubs instead of knockoffs (which is usually a FAR greater criminal offense around here, isn't it...????)

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

Yes, but prior to the NHTSA standard published in 1981, all the relevant sections of legacy US code (18 USC. 511, and 18 USC 2321, primarily) were compromised by Theseus' Paradox....

That's essentially why the 17 digit US VIN standard was published in the first place. There were too many loopholes in the US code to legally isolate criminal intent (which is already hard enough to establish in fraud cases).

Which is why legacy, pre-81 VIN numbers are pretty much disregarded by the legal system (except in substantive cases of Collector Car forgery, or when used as supporting statutes in cases of classic vehicle theft)

We're all going down a very different rabbit-hole here- This car has a title, with a number that matches the number attached to the vehicle. 99.9% of the state Motor Vehicle Department offices in this great land are going to issue a title, without challenge, reservation, or trepidation...

Why is that so hard to simply accept as what it is...???

This is not an observation pointed at any one person (or persons) around here, but since I've joined this forum, I have seen a large number of episodes where guys are prone to blindly swinging sharp sticks, trying to poke black bears in dark rooms... I don't get it...

It's a kit car, for Christ's sake. It's not a '28 Duesenberg.

Jumping to the conclusion that someone committed deliberate fraud, in order to "cheat the taxman", by using a stolen VIN number off of a Mustang...?

I mean, take two steps back from that statement, and then take second look at it... Does it seem any more absurd now?

Suspecting that someone committed deliberate fraud when they first registered this car (probably back in the early to mid 1980's, 30+ years ago, for crying out loud) is nothing but pure speculation, overlapping woeful flights of fancy...

Remind me- How many Cobra replica buyers have ACTUALLY been subsequently arrested and charged with fraud, after taking possession of their new toy, when attempting to do the title transfer?

Boy, this has been fun (as most of the threads on this forum usually become, once the original topic is completely exhausted, and tossed in the trash bin)

this car was still a good deal- If I had been in the market, I would have bought it....

And then, you all could have had a good laugh when the Men in Black came and hauled me away in handcuffs for trafficking in stolen Mustang VIN numbers, and for driving a 427 Cobra with a greasy undercarriage, and 5-lug hubs instead of knockoffs (which is usually a FAR greater criminal offense around here, isn't it...????)

I'd ask you the same thing. Why is so hard to accept that you cannot reuse a VIN that belonged to another car?

It appears to be a VIN from a '66 Ford Mustang, what if that car still exists? At a minimum someone is not representing the value of the car correctly for the purposes of calculating taxes.

And only Patrick can make up percentages. 99.9%, come on, that's pure nonsense BS pulled out of your backside. Just because some local $15/hour DMV employee registers the car doesn't mean that someone couldn't come along in the future and confiscate it.

I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.