This is Why I Don't Change My Oil

[Tom Wells]

Ed & patrick,

I don't think this will keep me from changing my oil...

Tom

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

Ed & patrick,

I don't think this will keep me from changing my oil...

Tom

You're right, Tom! I agree.

This is just an ongoing itch that I need to scratch from time to time. It really doesn't belong in this thread. When I saw it, I could not restrain myself from commenting. I should not have, not because the viewpoint is wrong or flawed, but because this is the wrong thread.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Like the tipping point analog, once you become sufficiently over-extended, there is no recovery. I fear that, that is true of Club Cobra. We should enjoy it (to the extent we can) before it finally augers into the ground. It does not appear to have a recovery path available to it.

I'm not at all familiar with the underlying database system that the forum software uses. However, it is noteworthy that this forum, out of the hundreds I've been active in or walked by in the past 20 years, this one is the ONLY ONE that has these repeated kinds of failure modes. The forum database snake starts to eat its tail until it gets so twisted up that it can't service requests any more then it goes off the air. The powers that be perform undisclosed magic and it comes back on the air, but never really performs as well as other forums using the same data base system. These failure modes wreak of corrupted database tables that evade the standard database repair tools. The best we can hope for is status quo - partially cloudy to cloudy with intermittent rain and snow.

There are still enough new interested Cobra owners - either from buying a used car or still even building their own kit and the few die hards that do it from scratch. For those this forum is a treasure and without the knowledge most of them would fail. Hopefully it'll stay "alive" until the last old Cobra enthusiast hangs up the steering wheel.

I think the original forum Black Swan event was the advent of social media forums.

History lesson of discussion software. It has been around since before the internet as most of you know it. Before the internet there was Arpanet, the community of which was limited to defense and educational institutions. Eventually some large companies, including IBM and DEC were allowed to join Arpanet. We all accessed our systems at work or with 300, then 1200, then 38.4K and finally 56K modems. You couldn't tolerate today's content at those data rates, yet in some parts of the country dial up is still used (satellite internet isn't much faster but is taking over). Last I checked Earthlink still had dial up access in some areas. [At one time DEC, along with IBM and several other large companies, owned a Class A network range 16.0.0.0 with a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0. That was very early in the days and I don't think there are any Class A nets any more.]

Within the early Arpanet there were these "reflector" based user groups that were collected under the global name of Usenet. You got an email digest of the last 24 hours of content, and to send content you sent an email to the reflector root and it sent it out to everyone who subscribed. Internet porn actually started there The Usenet was topic oriented although not threaded. Usenet still exists.

Then a fellow named Len Kawell who worked for DEC created a tool called VAXNotes. VAXnotes existed only with DEC's internal network. Much of the VMS multi-site work was in Notes. Our storage site used them for our products. If you used notes the forum software here is a natural growth. Notes files were single topic. So in today's forums you could have an "Operating System" forum that had as subforums, VMS, Unix, Windows. But that was a natural extension as storage and network bandwidth grew.

"Notes files" were supposed to be used for business purposes only. But the company didn't complain about non-business Notes Files as long as they didn't bog down the network. Remember, in the 80s the company networks were tied together using 56K leased line modems... I remember when DEC activated its first satellite based network link and the networking software had to have a release to deal with packet latencies. I administered the intra-site network in Colorado Springs for about a year and also hosted two "Notes" files - TV and Movies. I lost track of all of them when our storage division got sold to Quantum.

Len eventually left DEC and took his Notes concept and expanded it through Lotus to become Lotus Notes. Lotus Notes was a full blown enterprise database system. It had email and a forum/Notes like structure but was much more than that. I used Lotus Notes at Seagate. I liked the email system, Gmail took some getting used to. Other Lotus customers were IBM and I think Oracle. Seagate eventually switched to Google for email and the forum stuff wasn't widely used so it fizzled out. I think there are some business functions that still use Notes but they're buried deep inside finance.

Then along came things like Facebook and their friends. They serve the same function but don't have threaded. Technical things that have discrete subjects don't survive with the hit and run nature of Facebook. The history is lost in a few days. Threaded organization is needed to keep things focused (although hijacking even happened in VAXnotes).

I should write a book...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

i'm not at all familiar with the underlying database system that the forum software uses. However...

...

I should write a book...

tldr.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I'm not at all familiar with the underlying database system that the forum software uses. However, it is noteworthy that this forum, out of the hundreds I've been active in or walked by in the past 20 years, this one is the ONLY ONE that has these repeated kinds of failure modes. The forum database snake starts to eat its tail until it gets so twisted up that it can't service requests any more then it goes off the air. The powers that be perform undisclosed magic and it comes back on the air, but never really performs as well as other forums using the same data base system. These failure modes wreak of corrupted database tables that evade the standard database repair tools. The best we can hope for is status quo - partially cloudy to cloudy with intermittent rain and snow.

There are still enough new interested Cobra owners - either from buying a used car or still even building their own kit and the few die hards that do it from scratch. For those this forum is a treasure and without the knowledge most of them would fail. Hopefully it'll stay "alive" until the last old Cobra enthusiast hangs up the steering wheel.


History lesson of discussion software. It has been around since before the internet as most of you know it. Before the internet there was Arpanet, the community of which was limited to defense and educational institutions. Eventually some large companies, including IBM and DEC were allowed to join Arpanet. We all accessed our systems at work or with 300, then 1200, then 38.4K and finally 56K modems. You couldn't tolerate today's content at those data rates, yet in some parts of the country dial up is still used (satellite internet isn't much faster but is taking over). Last I checked Earthlink still had dial up access in some areas. [At one time DEC, along with IBM and several other large companies, owned a Class A network range 16.0.0.0 with a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0. That was very early in the days and I don't think there are any Class A nets any more.]

Within the early Arpanet there were these "reflector" based user groups that were collected under the global name of Usenet. You got an email digest of the last 24 hours of content, and to send content you sent an email to the reflector root and it sent it out to everyone who subscribed. Internet porn actually started there The Usenet was topic oriented although not threaded. Usenet still exists.

Then a fellow named Len Kawell who worked for DEC created a tool called VAXNotes. VAXnotes existed only with DEC's internal network. Much of the VMS multi-site work was in Notes. Our storage site used them for our products. If you used notes the forum software here is a natural growth. Notes files were single topic. So in today's forums you could have an "Operating System" forum that had as subforums, VMS, Unix, Windows. But that was a natural extension as storage and network bandwidth grew.

"Notes files" were supposed to be used for business purposes only. But the company didn't complain about non-business Notes Files as long as they didn't bog down the network. Remember, in the 80s the company networks were tied together using 56K leased line modems... I remember when DEC activated its first satellite based network link and the networking software had to have a release to deal with packet latencies. I administered the intra-site network in Colorado Springs for about a year and also hosted two "Notes" files - TV and Movies. I lost track of all of them when our storage division got sold to Quantum.

Len eventually left DEC and took his Notes concept and expanded it through Lotus to become Lotus Notes. Lotus Notes was a full blown enterprise database system. It had email and a forum/Notes like structure but was much more than that. I used Lotus Notes at Seagate. I liked the email system, Gmail took some getting used to. Other Lotus customers were IBM and I think Oracle. Seagate eventually switched to Google for email and the forum stuff wasn't widely used so it fizzled out. I think there are some business functions that still use Notes but they're buried deep inside finance.

Then along came things like Facebook and their friends. They serve the same function but don't have threaded. Technical things that have discrete subjects don't survive with the hit and run nature of Facebook. The history is lost in a few days. Threaded organization is needed to keep things focused (although hijacking even happened in VAXnotes).

I should write a book...

I heard about Lotus Notes and thought it was a great idea long before I went to work for IBM. The whole concept of collaboration, groupware and applications that could be built by end-users made a lot of sense to me. When I then landed at an IBM subsidiary in 1991 and was later exposed to Lotus Notes I thought it was great. The subsidiary I was working for was in the IT services and data centre outsourcing business, and they supported many customers that ran MS Exchange and Outlook. Let's just say the problems their users encountered with Exchange and Outlook (e.g. corrupt OST and PST files, locked out accounts, etc.) were far greater than the problems we had with Notes, but there was no way they were going to abandon MS to get on board with IBM's offering. They had drunk the Kool-Aid. Sigh.

To this day I'm still convinced Notes and Domino were far better than Exchange and Outlook, but the IBM products were the Sony Betamax while Microsoft's were the VHS of the day. Better marketing beat better products.

BTW, in 2018 IBM sold Lotus and its products to HCL, and you can still buy / license Notes and Domino: https://www.hcl-software.com/notes

[DanEC]

Tommy brings up a good point. My Brother’s, Brother-in-law bought a used Backdraft on a whim. I will say he is an enthusiastic owner, drives it a lot and would drive it just about anywhere, but he’s never impressed me as being the mechanic type or builder. I think the extent of his forum participation would be to ask where he could take it to get it repaired.

And yes, the forum balkiness is an issue. It probably should be called the Forrest Gump's forum - as you never know what you’re going to get when you open it up.

[Grubby]

This year at local cruise-ins I noted two car guys that couldn't fix their hot rods. One guy appeared to need a simple tune up on a '70 Corvette and the other wasn't able to change a starter on a '60s Fairlane.

It surprised me. I am of the opinion if you drive a specialty car and can't maintain it, life is going to be hard and expensive.

John

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Grubby

... the other wasn't able to change a starter on a '60s Fairlane.

You're absolutely right, but working on cars that we grew up with is not as easy for some as we are accustomed to. I was at a car show just recently looking at a decent FE engine in a Fairlane and the owner, who was clearly much younger than I, started up a chat with me. The car was new to him an he was lamenting that he thought he had broken the end of a plug wire off that morning and it was now missing a bit. He said he was going to stop off at AutoZone that afternoon and buy a set of plug wires for a '65 Ford Fairlane and he hoped they had them in stock. Seeing that he had an MSD box on the fender and what looked like a 8594 distributor, I mentioned that he should make sure the parts guy didn't give him solid core wires and tell the guy the aftermarket distributor cap has male prongs coming out the top. He didn't know what any of that meant. I also mentioned that with his heads and headers that 135 degree boots looked like they would fit way better. He didn't know what that was either. I ended up writing a recommendation for Moroso 8mm Blue Max 135 degree wires "universal fit" but told him that he was going to have to cut them and crimp them but they came with a little tool and there were videos on youtube on how you did it. I'm sure I saved that guy a boatload of headaches by pointing out something that most of us would just take for granted. I even told him about dielectric grease.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Grubby

I am of the opinion if you drive a specialty car and can't maintain it, life is going to be hard and expensive.

John

I share your opinion, though I'll note the issue of owner maintenance isn't unique to specialty cars. I was a member of a cycling club (recreation and transportation, not racing) for many years. On a few occasions we held a maintenance clinic on a local multi-use pathway. We'd ask passing cyclists if they'd like us to look over their bikes. Often that meant minor adjustments to shifting and brakes, lubricating their chain, etc.

Once guy came along on a high end, titanium frame, mountain bike. My guess is that, in today's currency, it would have been in the range of $7-10K, perhaps more. Call it the Rolex of mountain bikes. The guy was a physician with money to burn, but apparently had no idea how to do even the most basic bicycle maintenance.

OTOH, I grew up 'without two nickels to rub together' and parents who preached not to throw away or waste things. I also had a desire to figure out how things worked, so I was inclined to take them apart and put them back together without any parts left. It has served me well over the years. Not everyone is as fortunate.

[kevins2]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

...so I was inclined to take them apart and put them back together without any parts left. It has served me well over the years. Not everyone is as fortunate.

It's the "without any parts left" that's a problem for many...

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by kevins2

It's the "without any parts left" that's a problem for many...

The trick is to be able to do it with parts left over and then have it perform better ...

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

OTOH, I grew up 'without two nickels to rub together' and parents who preached not to throw away or waste things.

I grew up on a farm. Hay balers used actual wire to tie the bales (eventually switching to twine). My grandfather never threw away a piece of baling wire. The pile was next to the barn and eventually it bacame static is size - the bottom rusted down at the same rate we added new wire to the top. This type of wire is where the saying "held together with baling wire and bubble gum" came from.

I also had a desire to figure out how things worked, so I was inclined to take them apart and put them back together without any parts left. It has served me well over the years. Not everyone is as fortunate.

Same here. I was taking things apart and back together on the farm for as long as I can remember. Grandpa had a task to perform (don't remember what it was) and told me to change the planter from bean plates to corn plates. I was 12 or 13 (6th grade) at the time. I told him I didn't really know how and he said something like "you've been taking things apart for a long time. This is no different and easier. They can only come apart and go back one way". I remember there were several sets of gears and sprockets that had to be changed in addition to the plate. After the first one the rest were done in 1/2 time. Mostly spent in finding the right sized wrenches. Afterwards I used regular gasoline to wash the grease off my hands and arms.

[eschaider]

John Wayne summed it up rather succinctly when he observed that, 'Life is tough. It's a lot tougher, if your stupid.'

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by eschaider

John Wayne summed it up rather succinctly when he observed that, 'Life is tough. It's a lot tougher, if your stupid.'

Or just ignorant and unaware.

[Tommy]

"At first nothing happened. And then, after a while, nothing continued to happen." - A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe.

I followed patrickt's advice and went for the Blackstone Labs oil test. Everything was in order. It'll be a while before I do that again.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tommy

It'll be a while before I do that again.

Follow patrickt's advice or send your oil off to Blackstone?

[Godabitibi]

Here is another way of looking at it.
A friend of mine had a super nice Pantera that he drove only once in a while for small ride in town and park to chat with friends. He would then go back home and park it in the garage until the next little ride.
I asked him once, when did you changed your oil ? And his answer was there is no need it's still like new.
He pulled the dipstick and showed me how clean the oil was. And I told him clean doesn't mean it still good.
Oil oxydize over time when exposed to heat and moisture.
When used only on short rides as he was doing there is no time for moisture to evaporate.
Moisture and and temperature change without high heat help oxydation to get worse and makes a good environment to make acids.

When oil start to become acidic it then start to corrode metal.
Hydrocarbons can also developped bacterias. These bacterias can also make problems in gasoline over time.

That friend not using his car enough had a problem with gas and we had to remove the gas tank. In these cars you have to remove the engine to get the tank out. So we removed the engine.
While at it he said maybe we can have a look at the motor. So I pulled the oil pan to look inside.
When I removed the first bearing cap I spotted a darker spot on the crank journal. I asked him to bring a magnifier to look closer and showed him what the darker spot was.
I showed him it was corrosion pitting in the crank material due to acid in it's NICE LOOKING oil color.

I then told him this is in a place where there is no AIR in contact with the metal, now lets have a look at the top of the motor in the lifter galley where tnere is a lot of AIR IN CONTACT WITH METAL.

The botton of the lifters were SO CORRODED that they were like 80 or 40 grit sandpaper.

Oil change is a CHEAP maintenance. When you drain it you expell a lot of dirt and other chemicals.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Godabitibi

Here is another way of looking at it.
A friend of mine had a super nice Pantera that he drove only once in a while for small ride in town and park to chat with friends. He would then go back home and park it in the garage until the next little ride.
I asked him once, when did you changed your oil ? And his answer was there is no need it's still like new.
He pulled the dipstick and showed me how clean the oil was. And I told him clean doesn't mean it still good.
Oil oxydize over time when exposed to heat and moisture.
When used only on short rides as he was doing there is no time for moisture to evaporate.
Moisture and and temperature change without high heat help oxydation to get worse and makes a good environment to make acids.

When oil start to become acidic it then start to corrode metal.
Hydrocarbons can also developped bacterias. These bacterias can also make problems in gasoline over time.

That friend not using his car enough had a problem with gas and we had to remove the gas tank. In these cars you have to remove the engine to get the tank out. So we removed the engine.
While at it he said maybe we can have a look at the motor. So I pulled the oil pan to look inside.
When I removed the first bearing cap I spotted a darker spot on the crank journal. I asked him to bring a magnifier to look closer and showed him what the darker spot was.
I showed him it was corrosion pitting in the crank material due to acid in it's NICE LOOKING oil color.

I then told him this is in a place where there is no AIR in contact with the metal, now lets have a look at the top of the motor in the lifter galley where tnere is a lot of AIR IN CONTACT WITH METAL.

The botton of the lifters were SO CORRODED that they were like 80 or 40 grit sandpaper.

Oil change is a CHEAP maintenance. When you drain it you expell a lot of dirt and other chemicals.

This also speaks to the importance of running the engine periodically at full operating temperature. All engines suffer from the 1 mile little old lady trips to the grocery store. That's the reason we change the oil in our Honda at 3000 - 5000 miles.

[eschaider]

I once went almost 400,000 miles on a 1977 Mk IV. I would periodically add a quart. The worst that happened was the oil filter rusted out somewhere around 300,000 miles — New England winters. I had to add more than 1 quart that time. No exhaust smoke and decent mileage for a 460 4BBL ...

[twobjshelbys]

The engine on my power washer says never change the oil just add...