Dart Iron Eagle Block Help

[Carroll DeWeese]

I have been reading posts about the Dart Iron Eagle Block for Ford engines. What are its advantages and disadvantages compared to Ford factory blocks?

I am planning to put a stroked 351W in my new SPF. I can go with a plain Ford 351W, a Sportsman block, or the Dart Iron Eagle Block. From what I can tell the Dart has the promise of the most potential performance and realiablity. What do you guys who know about engines have to say? I need to make a firm commitment with my engine builder within the next couple of weeks. I would like some second opinions to guide me in my discussions.

[RACER X #99]

http://66.96.130.106/archives/2002/0...ck/index.shtml

Take a look here.

Cranky

[Carroll DeWeese]

I looked there. I have read it. I have read some other materials by Dart about their engine before my post. I only have enough understanding about engines to be dangerous. It sound very good to me, but could someone translate it into more layman terms? Based upon what I know, it sound like it should be used if you are using a new block. But I do not know enough to be sure. Is is really a better block? If so, why should it be used instead of a engine from Ford?

[RACER X #99]

Thicker cylinder walls, thicker bottom end main bearing area, dual external oiling feeds. If you are just building a street engine you probably don't need this. If you want a serious HP small block 500+ hp then you need the 4 bolt mains. The stock 351 is a very weak looking block when compared side by side with the Dart. Even the 4 Bolt Chevy block looks weak compared to the Dart.
That's why I bought one. Plus only about $500 more than the SVO block.

Cranky

[Carroll DeWeese]

Thanks. At the price, it looks too good to be true. It is a stronger block with more flexibility for changes.

[btsai]

How far can you comfortably stretch the displacement on that block? I keep reading horror stories about Windsors stroked to 427 cu in -- and not being as solid as you might want...

[Carroll DeWeese]

They advertise that the 351 version can be stroked to 428+ c.i.d. The Dart has much more structural webbing, cylinder walls etc. than the 351W. Does anyone have more details?

[RACER X #99]

Guys, you don't need more than 400 cubes on a sb Ford to beat up on most of the FE crowd. The aftermarket heads for the Sb flow much better than the BB FE heads. Only two manufacturers that I know of making FE heads. About 8-10 making sb heads. Don't forget we are only moving 2500 lbs not 4000lbs that those torque producing BB were designed for. I have heard that for Road Racing (my hobby) that less torque but higher rpms is the way to go for faster lap times. Leave the Big torque Big cube motors for the drag strip where they belong.

Cranky

[btsai]

I guess my thought was that it would be cool to have have a reliable, incredibly strong engine that is a real 427 -- in CU IN, that is. Just a more modern intrepretation of the breed.

Could answer "yes" honestly to the "is it really a 427" question. And for those who would know enough to even ask about a side-oiler they'd probably appreciate hearing how excellent a DART block based engine is. (And from the sounds of it, how much more power you might be able to make with one.)

And then we could get someone to make "Cobra 427" valve covers to fit, blah, blah, blah... Heck, it's only money. LOL


Ben

[scottj]

440cid is the max recommended. This is NOT a stroked Windsor though, it has a 4.185 bore potential and when combined with a max recommended 4" crank your at 440". A Windsor, with a 4.030 bore needs a 4.170" crank to get 427", not an ideal combination for a high performance motor. Typically, when cubic inches are equal, the large bore\ short stroke combination will have a higher rpm torque peak but a flatter curve. The small bore\ long stroke combination will peak at a lower rpm but will have a peakier curve. Flatter torque curves are easier to drive.

This block finally allows Ford guys to copy the combinations that have been available to the Chevy guys and for a reasonable amount of money. With the aftermarket standardization of pistons, rods, cranks, and now blocks, only the cylinder heads account for any performance differences between the manufacturers.

Scott

[Carroll DeWeese]

scottj,

If I understand you correctly, the Dart allows true driveable BB characteristics in a SB package.

Based upon what you say, btsai and the rest of us could get a realiable 427 c.i.d. engine.

Am I missing something, why have we not heard more about this engine for Cobras?

[scottj]

Carroll,
I'm saying it has much greater potential than the 4" bore combination when used for a max effort engine. This type of motor is common in offroad truck unlimited class and dirt Late Models where every combination of bore, stroke, rod length, compression, etc. has been tried in an effort to produce max power WITH drivability. The 4.155 bore (or close to it) has become standard. You won't find a 4" bore combination in these classes. One reason is the 4" bore, with any stroke, won't produce the power required to be competitive at that level.

From a reliability stand point, the shorter stroke has lower piston speed and therefore less tension loading of the rods and piston pins. Lower piston speed also produces less friction and better top end power. Lower piston speed produces better cylinder fill at high rpms.

The larger bore allows better cylinder fill through decreased valve shrouding. It also allows larger valves.

The design is intended for racing but will also work for "excessive street overkill" if you need that big of a motor or if you just want a 427 small block. If that's the case, I wouldn't build a Windsor with over a 4" stroke.

You haven't heard about the Dart specifically, because it's new for Fords. You haven't heard about this TYPE of motor, IMO, because the Windsor, with its relative ease and inexpense of stroking, has sufficed for the street.

Does anyone remember, the PAW catalog, in 1985, offered the "Super Gorilla aluminum 427" small block Chevy. I remember it as being the first time a dirt Late Model engine combination was offered to the Hot Rodding community. I can't tell you how badly I wanted one of those then and I new exactly what kind of car I'd put it in too.

Scott

[decooney]

Carroll,

if you go with the Dart/Ford block, please report the results. It sure seems like a great option to consider. I like my FE, but also will consider this type of setup on a future slabside car. Some of my friends who are more into light handling cars are talking about going with this type of setup, and this Dart block specifically - staying under 400ci though. Good luck, and let us know how it goes if you take this route.

Thanks.

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
PAW still lists the 427 sb but in a Ford Windsor block.$2495 for a complete short block kit(you put it together) Perfect for the street only crowd that still wants a 427 but in a smaller package.

Cranky

[scottj]

Has anybody heard anything about the aluminum RDI 427 that SPF is testing? I'm curious as to what kind of power they end up with and what heads they use.
Also, has anyone heard who won the roadcourse competition at Run & Gun. I know when I left after the first round, a 434 cid "brand x" dirt track small block was leading the Pro Big Block class. Who woulda thunk it?
Scott

[Carroll DeWeese]

I will talk to my engine builder within the next two weeks about the advantages and tradeoffs of using the Dart. He is John Vermeerch of Total Performance in Clinton Township, MI. It is his shop that answers the "800" line for Ford Racing questions.

I told him that I wanted a very streetable, durable stroked 351W producing at least 480 torque and bhp. I also want it to run on 90 octane gas. I will get his opinion on using the Dart block and boring it to get the cid, staying reliable, streetable, etc.

Scottj, I like the idea of a shorter stroke. Specifically, I like the idea of a 427 engine. I will ask what the tradeoffs are in getting it. I will let you guys know what I decide, once I decide.

[Mr.Fixit]

You really do not need an aftermarket block for a 500 hp windsor.

Heck, how much power are the 302 mustang crowd putting through their factory blocks in the forced induction drag race scene, double what you want? We sold lots of stroked 351w's that did make an honest 520 hp on pump gas, warranteed them, and never had a block related failure. Even left them as 2 bolt main caps, with ARP studs. My experiences with hipo winsors is the most common failures are the head gaskets getting blown out, they only have 4 bolts around each cylinder. You can buy whatever year windsor block for $150 then spend another $500 machining it. If money is no object, then go ahead and do it for the cool points, but without a ford casting number, I am unsure of the legal aspects of that block in some states. My hopes for aftermarket blocks are the 750+ cid big block combos, not ever released in a production car.

[btsai]

I remember reading about John Versmeersh years ago. I seem to recall a story in Hot Rod about him stuffing a 460 into a tubbed Mustang II running slicks and terrorizing the Woodward Ave. rodders back in the late '70's or early '80s.

And I think we're (Carroll and I) are trying to marry the "cool" factor of 427 cu in along with the more modern block. Gee, then we could run that Edelbrock FI system and run the Cobra long air filter on top. As the Beach Boys sing -- "Fun, Fun, Fun"!

I just can't seem to get enough of this stuff!

Ben

[Jeff Frigo]

Here is a good thread from the GT-40

Dart SB Block

[btsai]

Carroll -- it's been a couple of months. Have you continued to pursue this?

Just curious.

Ben