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58mm Webers - the real McCoy
OK -- I think these are the real deal. Cal -- am I right?
Article from 1989 Road & Track special issue on "Supercars" listed it as their fastest 1/4 miler tested -- 11.5 sec. at 128 MPH. Says the Webs are "one of 12 sets hand-built for Ford's 1964 pushrod V-8 Indy engine". They never mention the CSX # -- it does list it as an "AC Cobra" -- not "Shelby". At the time it was owned by a European man who was planning to take it back to Europe. 453 cu in. (428 crank), a ton of dyno work and open pipes. Interesting. Ben http://members.cox.net/btsai4/58mm.jpg |
Yes the carbs are the real deal. They were used on the 255 Cu in pushrod small block Ford used in Jimmy Clarks rear engined Lotus in the 63 Indy race. Seems like a lot of carburetor for a 255 engine. The front cover was different and incorporated the distributor but it was mounted at an angle similar to a Big block Mopar. I have seen pictures of the engine on a dyno with the exhaust glowing red, pretty cool picture.
Super Ford Magazine did an extensive article on this 427 Cobra with the 58mm Webers several years ago. The owners name was Luk and was from Germany, I believe he has a website dedicated to the Cobra nameplate. The intake manifold is unique in that the carbs are turned 90 degrees from the more common mounting position. Part of the article focused on the exhaust system on the 427 cars. Through changes made to the exhaust I think they picked up around 90 HP. Rick |
Ben:
To be truthful, I have never seen 58mm except in DCOE form. They certainly are not 48s and they look larger so it must be. Phil Remington said he made a cross ram manifold for GM for the 215 cid Oldsmobile that utilized 58mm Weber, although those, too, would have been side drafts. He said the engine had virtually no bottom end---gee, 'ya think?!!! Those downdrafts are pretty neat looking. I like the linkage set up which is necessary because of their perpidicular mount. |
Here's a picture of the car. In the article, they listed the owner (at that time) as a guy named Bernard Hofstadter. Perhaps sold to this Luk guy...
http://members.cox.net/btsai4b/ac.jpg |
The article also stated that ran well and called it "a 7000-rpm big-block". Sounds a bit optimistic to me, but regardless, it probably ran well...
Ben P.S. -- If you want me to scan and post the whole article, I'd be happy to. |
I HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF THE FLIP TOP WITH 58'S ON THE BIG BLOCK (390 EXPERMINTAL). BEEN TOLD THAT THESE ARE QUITE RARE. THERE WAS A SET FOR SALE AWHILE BACK FOR 15K.
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Terry:
$15K would seem to be a good price. The DCOE 58s with manifold are, probably, a minimum of $20K. I saw those on a Cheetah at Monterey last summer. The mechanic told me he was switching to F15 emulsion tubes which are leaner than the F7s he is currently using. |
What is the difference between 58mm Webers and 58mm Bergs (available today)? Are the Bergs really 58mm carbs (Weber copy cats) down to the venturi or are they merely 48mm carbs with 58mm velocity stacks? I've always wanted 58's for an FE. Would the 58mm EFI from TWM Induction be a better choice? What are the pros and cons?
Thanks. |
The Bergs are truly 58mm and they make the IDA look-a-like in many iterations including 52, 54...., venturi size. The Berg carbs use standard Weber parts (idle jets, etubes, etc). The circuitry for the gas flow is somewhat different; the throttle shafts are sealed ball bearing (I think). The aux venturi is designed for optimum low speed performance, too. They are outstanding carburetors that perform better than a standard Weber. Berg, an expert in VWs, developed the 58mm on four cylinder VW engines.
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I think the Berg's are made to a 48 IDA bolt pattern. The original 58 IDA's bolt spacing is larger, although the spacing of the venturi centerline I think is the same as a 48 IDA. David Salkowski could probably tell you, as I beliee he runs the Berg 58's.
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What about the TWM system Bluedog mentioned? I know -- it's a different beast, but what do we know about it? Anyone?
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TWM 58mm
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I am right now putting on the TWm 58mm fuel injected throttle bodies. I have to say that they are nothing less than awesome! The fit and finish are exceptional...I sent mine in to be chromed including the intake manifold and have included a picture below of the set up taken right in the box as I received them.....
I use an Electromotive Tec3 EFI Controller.....all this is going on a 532 engine.... |
Anthony:
That is correct. The Bergs will fit the 48 IDA bolt pattern. The manifold has to be opened up, however, to accept the larger throttle bores. |
Moshuka -- any updates on the TWM install? Pictures?
Ben |
TWM Install
The install went pretty well....found that the throttle plates were binding just a bit , so TWM manufactured a new set that was .001" under....haven't put them on yet...but tuning the car...I can say that it is a neck snapping beast!!!
System needs to be tuned...fuel injection is touchy....but making good headway on it......I really like it though!!! Stay tuned :D |
Mohuska......
Are you going to bring this beast out for the Monterey Historics? I would love to see this set up up close! **) - Bill - |
I saw Mohuskas engine at DVSFIII and it was one of the nicest engines at the Fling. I hope you have your starting problems taken care of.
Dan |
Mohuska Your TWM look great. Did you have a choise of ECU's with the TWM's?? What size injectors are you using? I am sorry I missed DVSF3, I will make next year and bring the car. I was looking at the first cobra picture and the Webers are mounted in a row, Dave S. system is mounted side by side. His setup the carbs are at a 10 degree angle into the motor, the other setup the carbs are straight up and down with a different manifold on the motor. Dave S motor is a High riser, is the other a tunnelport?? Could you put a picture of or setup on the site when the motor is done. I am interested in the TWMs but with a twist of blower on top. I already have the FI system with the paxton and want to move to the next level. Thanks Rick Lake
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TWM
Dan....Thanks...I have been working out the bugs...just tuning problems...not anything else significant.....I am nearly there with the base tuning...just working a little more on the starting issue....much better now than it was at DVSF....
Bill.....I don't think I will be there....I am actually getting married in a month and my time has been allocated (read between those lines :D ) Rick......I actually thought of doing that myself....These TWM are canted inward at either an 8 or 10 degree angle on the 460 motor...I don't know what size you have...but TWM makes straight up and canted versions for 427 I believe.....You would have to make your own blower hat for the 8 stacker....but TWM has an air cleaner set up that would get you started on that...it fits over all 8 stacks.....go to their web site at www.twminduction.com I choose the Electromotive Tec3 EFI controller....it is complicated to program, but extremely flexible in its' abilities...Works well with boost and has numerous features for boosted cars......check it out.... Mike |
TWm
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I have another pic...but darn the size limitations...I hope you can make out something....
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