CSX vs. SPF? 427FE vs. 460?

[Bill Wells]

EVAN SAID : In order for any shoot out to mean anything the cars have to be comparably equipped and set up and have the same driver(s).

Otherwise its a waste of time.


HIQ SAID :


Don't know about the cars but the better driver would win.


BILL WELLS SAYS :

hey, i agree with both of ya..but the key element then is that the same drivers also switch cars and do the same courses IN EACH car !!

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Dickey:

The statement by you and others that the cars would have to have the "same" engines, tires, transmissions, etc... is not true. Every magazine out there compares "similar" vehicles, usually by price range. This is usually a CSX4000 owners excuse as to why a $60,000.00 + Superformance Cobra will beat it at every test, period.

As far as the weight goes, the 514 c.i. engine isn't more than 50 - 70 pounds heavier and since the Superformance Cobra is so much less (price wise), we will give it a aluminum block to even out the weight issues.

Now, the FE engine family was raced by Ford only for a short period of time. The 429/460 engine family has been the Ford racing engine of choice for over 30 years, it has been in Nascar, Pro Stock, Drag boats, Monster trucks, Cobra's, etc... The engine is better than the FE engine in every way possible, period. The 427 S.O. engine is only expensive because the parts are very rare. The 460 engine is way more dependable than the 427 S.O. engine, period.

Mr. Dickey:

Let's say you have a 1990's Thunderbird race car you are having built. Would you pay $30,000.00 for a Iron Block 427 c.i. engine putting out 550 horsepower (until it goes BOOM!)? Or, would you take a 10 times more reliable 557 c.i. all aluminum 750+ horsepower engine for $25,000.00?

It's "real" simple, Superformance has a standard 514c.i. engined Cobra with a Tremec TKO 5-speed transmission for almost half of the price of a CSX4000 Cobra.

[Russ Dickey]

Bandit:
You got a little off track, but that's ok. I asked your opinion in an FE SPF vs. 460 SPF performance showdown, and I'll assume that all your dancing around of that subject means that it's probably too close to call.

As far as car magazine tests, I guess some of you guys consider all these different replica manufacturers as different as apples and oranges. I see them as all oranges, and I just want to find out which one tastes better. It's my opinion that these cars are all built to replicate one vehicle: the Cobra. Therefore, to find out which one is "the best overall" Cobra, each of the cars in our "road test" would have to be identically prepared or else you'll end up with some cars that have advantages in certain areas.

To me, a CSX vs. an SPF road test is not the same as a Corvette vs. a Viper road test: the Vette and Viper are two completely different cars, whereas the CSX and Superformance are both Cobras. Maybe a better analogy would be to think of it more like a showdown between the top-dog Mustangs: the Roush Stage 3 vs. the Saleen S281E vs. the '03 Cobra. All are basically the same car, all powered by supercharged 4.6 DOHC engines (albeit different tranny's) with some different chassis and suspension set-ups. Then, put all these Mustangs through my series of performance tests, and see how they rank.

And as far as your last comparison goes, I don't have that kind of scratch to build either an FE or a 460 of the caliber your talking about. I know that for around $10k, you can build either of them, with reliable horsepower and torque figures around the 500 mark.

Plus, can you really put 750 hp to the ground in one of these cars?? I don't know because I don't have one, but it sounds pretty tough.

[Excaliber]

Identical Cobras? Heck with that, bring on that 460 SPF, I'll race him in a 351 FFR anyday! The SPF wouldn't have a prayer by the 5th or 6th lap, it's brakes would be TOAST!

Think I'm wrong? Try this with YOUR "excellent" Cobra:

From 120 mph slow down as fast as you can to 25 mph. Turn around and come back the other way if you like, take your time. Now, speed back up to 120 mph and slow to 25 mph. This will simulate road course conditions on a track! You won't be "stopping" but you will have to SLOW down for that big sweeper at the end of the straight-a-way EVERY lap. Assume the track is about a mile in length.

I'm guessing MOST Cobras can do that FIVE TIMES in a row (MAYBE)! Number 6 you feel the fade start to come, the brakes are "going away". On the 7th time, have PLENTY of "run off" room, your going to need it! Your brakes will be TOAST!

So how many laps of a ten lap race did you do? 6? 7? Heck, the freaking VW you left at the starting line is coming dude, and he's coming for YOU!

And you want MORE horse power? Hell, you can't even STOP the car with what you got!

Drag Racer are you? OK, use a 460 bored and stroked and go get 'em for 1/4 of a mile and ONE stop! But if you can't run in the 9's it sure is going to be embarrassing when that TINY Buick V6 powered Cobra "spanks you"!

So the point of a "giant" motor was what??? Oh yeah, it FEELS and LOOKS so cool dude (uh,,,,,pass the wax please).

Ernie

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Dickey:

As far as the 427c.i. SPF -VS- 460 c.i. SPF, if the weight of the two cars and the horsepower was equal it woud be either cars day to win.

However, the 427c.i. SPF would cost atleast 10 - $15,000.00 more and over the long haul reliablilty and cost of repair would not even be close: WINNER SPF 460 c.i. engine.

Mr. Excalibur:

I apologize, I keep forgetting that all Cobra's must be good at short track racing.

[Excaliber]

Ha ha,,of course they must be! Actually it is interesting to note that foundation of the Cobra "legend" began with the 289 FIA cars which set FAR more records than the 427 ever thought about.

However, it WAS the "drag strip" like performance of the 427's that put it in the Guiness World Book of records as THE Fastest Production car in the world, where it remained for many years!

I've always thought it a little strange that "Americas" fascination with 0-60 mph times is EVERYTHING when it comes to "measuring" a cars "performance". The 427 Cobra was SO fast they started measuring it in terms of 0-100 and BACK to 0. And even TODAY (almost 40 years later), it's perfomance as measured in those terms is STILL "competitive" (close to or in the top ten cars in the world)!

Truly, the Cobra is an AMAZING car on many different levels!

Ernie

[Dan Semko]

Entropy in action. This really spiralled out into the wild blue.
Back to comparing apples to apples. If you had $40k and bought a Superformance and likewise purchased what small parts could be purchased on a CSX, placed them side by side, the Superformance would win for completeness, quality, fit and finish.
It would be close to a complete car. Not so with the CSX BUT if you tried to resell both vehicles 5 years after your initial purchase, the CSX would retain more value or increase just on it's name. They are both wonderful vehicles and depending on your mindset, each can easily satisfy the cobra taste.
My remarks about the CAV/Shelby venture is merely an observation. Superformance will be launching it's new Coupe and it will be interesting to evaluate the CAV and the coupe side by side.

[Turk]

I am up for the challenge as posted by Bandit 1.

"Why don't the CSX owners quit bragging all of the time and have a one-on-one competition (in a featured magazine) against a 427c.i. S.O. CSX4000 Cobra and a 514c.i. (overweight) Superformance Cobra (T-Bird chassis and all). The Superformance Cobra (at $50,000.00 less) will beat the CSX4000 Cobra at everything except for excuses why it lost every competition"

OK. Let's do it.

I will have Pat Buckley drive MY CSX4000, and I will drive YOUR SPF.

My bet is on my car! My car will beat the pants out of your SPF, especially with me behind the wheel of your otherwise very capable SPF.

I rest my case.

TURK

[Edley Rondinone]

Kind of like an old movie where the two "hot rodders" drove each other's car on a bluff overlooking the ocean. They were playing "chicken." The out-of-town 'rabble rouser' "chickened out, and stopped before going over the edge to a sure death on the rocks below. But the 'out-of-towner's' car was shown going over the edge, to a fiery demise on the rocks below.........................fortunately, our "hero" had bailed out of the out-of-towner's car before HE went over the edge with the car

[Turk]

Kind a sorta like that...

TURK


I guess the moral of the story, it ain't the cars...it ain't the engines. It is the people. At least I like to think so.

TURK

[Dan Semko]

Edley,
That movie is similar to the scenario with a certain NJ person that will remain anonymous. Drive to the edge and bail out of the Fling.

[REAL 1]

Bandit: You started this mess by arguing the SPF 460 was superior in performance than the CSX 427FE. You keep parroting the SPF would be the "WINNER". I have asked you before to provide facts that support your statements such as your claims that SPF has a superior chasis to the CSX. Thats bunk! Where is the proof and facts.

SPF iwould be the "Winner"? At what? I asked you for proof and the emperical facts to back your statements and all we get and continue to get is hollow rhetoric that "SPF" is the "winner."

You say "CSX owners" brag all the time? What are you talking about? Who said what? Bragging about what? Be specific. Stop with the BS blanket general accusations. They mean squat. From this thread the only bragging seems to be coming from you as a SPF owner that SPF is the winner and would be the "winner" at EVERYTHING and how superior the 460 is to the 427FE.

Oh, also, please give me that facts that support you statement as to the 460 being superior to the 427FE. Superior in what way? Block strength? Oiling? Give me facts and why not just blanket claims of "victory".

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not refuting your grandiose statements I'm just asking you to provide the facts and emperical data. You talk the talk. Do you walk the walk? Give us facts.

Georgiasnake: You saying that Jamo's a$$ isn't a quality peice???

[KeithBrown]

Can't we get past the petty my Cobra is Bigger (oops I mean better), than your Cobra?

Both The SPF's and CSX's are great cars. Who gives a rat's a$$ if one can theoretically beat another in the virtual world?

Regards,

Keith

[REAL 1]

Keith: I tried to get past this petty mine is better than yours stuff. I can't!

Your right. I really don't give a !@#$. Bandit made the statement. I'm just asking for the backup. He should put up or shut up as the saying goes. Thats all. If he can prove it fine. If not stop making statements that can't be backed up.

[KeithBrown]

Actually Evan, I am on your side in this case.

I felt that they were ragging on CSX's and it get's a bit old. I would love to own either one (with a prefernce toward Kirkham or Shelby).

Regards,

Keith

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Real 1:

The facts are simple (by the way, I did not "bring this up" I only commented on it), we contact a magazine like "Car And Driver", etc.. and have them do their normal test on both cars.

Both cars would be equal as far as "standard" Superformance Cobra's and "standard" CSX4000 Cobra's go.

15" tires
550 horsepower engine (CSX 427 c.i. / Superformance 460 c.i.)
standard transmissions (CSX 4-speed/ Superformance 5-speed)
standard gearing
standard suspension
standard sidepipes

I am not the one that keeps making the statement that Superformance has the best suspension/chassis setup, that would be you Mr. Real 1 making statements that no Cobra manufacturer could improve the CSX4000 setup!

I am sure Superformance would be up to the challenge, Mr. Real 1 can contact his people at SIA and see if they are up to the challenge.

[BANDIT 1]

SHELBY COBRA CSX4000

The Shelby Cobra is arguably the world's most famous and recognizable sports car. The legendary 427 S/C was the ultimate expression of this incredible car. Today's CSX4000 Series 427 S/C Cobra from Shelby American is everything our 1965 model was, and more. From the world's first computer designed chassis and four wheel coil-over independent suspension to the heart stopping power of the big block Ford V8 breathing through those awesome side pipes - these Cobras are all Shelby. The authenticity is documented by Shelby CSX chassis numbers and a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) from Shelby American signed by Carroll himself. Improvements include a stronger steel frame and better alloys used in the components, plus better cooling and additional heat shielding to make these cars safer and more drivable without losing any of their original character. If you've ever wanted a true Shelby Cobra, this is your car. With 0-60 in four seconds flat and 12 second quarter mile performance, you'll know exactly what it's like to drive a true American Legend.

All new production Shelby Cobras are offered in component form, less drive train.

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

Vehicle Type - Two Passenger, Two-Door Roadster
Dimensions and Capacities:
Wheelbase - 90.0 in.
Track, F/R - 56.0/58.0 in.
Length - 156.0 in.
Width - 72 in.
Ground Clearance - 4.5 in.
Weight - (assumes 427 engine and 4-speed Toploader transmission installed by purchaser) - approx. 2,500 lbs. depending upon body
Weight Distribution - Depends on engine installation by purchaser
Standard Fuel Capacity - 20 Gallons
Chassis/Body:
Type - Full-Length, 4 inch X .125 inch; D.O.M. Steel Round Tube (.120 inch D.O.M. on aluminum body chassis)
Body Material - Hand Laid Fiberglass or Aluminum
Suspension:
Front - Independent Unequal-length adjustable Control Arms, Coil Springs, 3/4" Anti-sway Bar
Rear - Independent Unequal-length Control Arms, Coil-over shocks, Trailing links, and 5/8" Anti-sway Bar
Steering - Rack and Pinion, 16" Steering Wheel
Brakes:
Front - 5/8" X 11-7/16" OD Disc, 2-3/8" Two-piston Caliper
Rear - 9/16" X 11.5-1/2" OD Disc, 2" Two-piston Caliper
Differential - 3.54:1, Shelby Aluminum Limited-slip

[BANDIT 1]

700 Series Superformance Mark III Specifications

WHEEL BASE OF ROLLING CHASSIS 90”
LENGTH OF ROLLING CHASSIS 152”
HEIGHT TO TOP OF WINDSHIELD 48”
OVERALL WIDTH 69.5”
FRONT TRACK 54”
FUEL TANK CAPACITY 17.5 GALLONS
FUEL CELL CAPACITY 18 GALLONS
EMPTY WEIGHT - 351 MOTOR 2580 LBS.
EMPTY WEIGHT - 427 MOTOR 2790 LBS.
EMPTY WEIGHT - 460 MOTOR 2730 LBS.
FRONT TIRE P245/60R15(BF GOODRICH RADIAL T/A)
REAR TIRE P295/50R15(BF GOODRICH RADIAL T/A)

[REAL 1]

Bandit 1: What do the specs of the cars prove aside from the fact that the SPF is not aesthetically accurate. Opps. Guess its not the "WINNER" in that department.

See my last post in the other thread. The "moderators" are apparently having fun shuffling posts around and creating their own threads cause I sure didn't create this thread.

[computerworks]

Trust me... this is not FUN.

I moved the CSX vs SPF "debate" to it's own thread.

And... be clear about this: It is not "our own threads"...it's your discussion, not ours.

Ron
Club Cobra Moderator