CSX vs. SPF? 427FE vs. 460?

[REAL 1]

I thought the Series 1 was supposed to be the "new" Cobra? Oh well.

I don't think Ford is going to build anything thats not DOT/EPA legal. So I would anticipate it to be a completely different car than the Continuation Cobra. Even if they used the CSX prefix for any vin # I don't see it havng any impact on the Contiuation Cobras. They will be a different car of a different Series. A completely different animal. Anything that would affect the Continuation Cobra value is also likely to affect the value of original Cobras IMHO. Both the original and the Contiuation Cobra were/are limited production vehicles.

I suspect that SAI will look to offer a less expensive Cobra with simplier chasis and suspension and drive train to compete with SPF. An entry level 427 so to speak. My guess. South Africian production of glass 427's will also bring down the cost.

In the end I think Shelby is looking to compete head on with SPF and the like. If they are able to they will garner alot of business IMHO. If its a choice between driving a Shelby or a brand "X" I'd be willing to bet a majority of guys would rather have "Shelby" on their car then brand "X".

[KobraKarl]

Evan

Yea ,.........but will they be different?

KK

[REAL 1]

If what Ford plans to sell is DOT/EPA approved its gonna have to be.

[Dan Semko]

Well Evan, there you go again, trying to compare apples and oranges. If you investigate further, you'll learn that Superformance built a huge facility directly across from the CAV building and most of the CAV employees jumped across the road to a better work environment, better pay and a stable situation. Jim Price from Superformance has SPF quality production down to a science and to remotely imagine that anyone will be able to compete ismerely a pipe dream. The quality, fit and finish of the Superformance dollar for dollar, cannot be matched. The CSX is a totally different breed which prides itself on no two vehicles being exactly the same, just like the original Shelby's are well noted for.
Are they better, no, just different. Are they inferior, not by a long shot. Will Ford build a better cobra that will be safer, have more creature comforts and gain a respectable portion of the market for the investment, you can count on it.
Now go out ,put on your training skates and hit a few pucks!

[BANDIT 1]

Evan,

If SIA was to build a "glass" Cobra to compete with the Superformance Cobra's, I would take the SPF in a heartbeat.

Let's see, Shelby Cobra with a 427 c.i. engine (aka. 500 horsepower) and a 4-speed transmission v.s. Superformance Cobra with a 514 c.i. engine (aka. 600+ horsepower) and a 5-speed transmission = WINNER: Superformance Cobra...

P.S.

That is even if Shelby put's a 427 S.O. engine in the "CAV" Cobra, he might use the 428 c.i. engine...

My opinion is this, since the Shelby "CAV" Cobra will not be identical to the "original" Cobra and therefore is in direct competition with the SPF (etc...) Cobra's, I will go with the faster car.

[Russ Dickey]

Originally posted by Dan Semko


Well Evan, there you go again, trying to compare apples and oranges. If you investigate further, you'll learn that Superformance built a huge facility directly across from the CAV building and most of the CAV employees jumped across the road to a better work environment, better pay and a stable situation. Jim Price from Superformance has SPF quality production down to a science and to remotely imagine that anyone will be able to compete ismerely a pipe dream. The quality, fit and finish of the Superformance dollar for dollar, cannot be matched. The CSX is a totally different breed which prides itself on no two vehicles being exactly the same, just like the original Shelby's are well noted for.
Are they better, no, just different. Are they inferior, not by a long shot.

Dan:
I understand your analogy, but think that you're being a bit narrow-minded. Are you saying that no other company could ever come to South Africa and turn out a better Cobra than SPF?

I hope the folks at SPF don't share your over-confidence. It's been my experience that just when a company thinks that they can't be bested, somebody else comes along and knocks them on their a$$.

I agree with Evan. If the quality, fit & finish, and price of the SPF and the Shelby are equal, most of us will-be buyers are going to choose the Shelby. I would.

Then mine could be REAL 2....

Russ

[BANDIT 1]

RUSS:

I don't think Dan is being "narrow-minded" at all. Dan is actually a owner of a CSX4000 Cobra and a Superformance Cobra and he has them both to compare.

Superformance is constantly improving their Cobra's. The cars are a "work of art". I have had many people ask me that if the "original" Cobra's were so hard to drive with 500 horsepower, my 600+ horsepower Cobra must be a near death experience each time I drive it. My response is simple, the Superformance Cobra's are so well designed that the car would be in my opinion "very difficult to wreck". I was very impressed with the Superformance Cobra from the day I test drove one.

[Russ Dickey]

Bandit:
I have no doubts regarding any of the points you make. I agree that the SPF's are fine cars, and are still among the elite few at the top of my list of "potentials" for my own car.

I am simply making the point that I cannot think of one company, in any industry, who has remained at the top indefinately. There is always somebody out there with a way to make the product or processes better. In this instance, it just might be the guy who started all this madness in the first place.

Again, all variables being equal, I'll give my $$$ to Carroll first.

Russ

[Turk]

What makes an SPF so different than others, that they are "difficult to wreck"?
ABS, Traction Control?

I bet I can wreck one as easy as any other Cobra, if I drove it the same way. I don't know anything special about the suspension and the braking of an SPF that is so unique to it that, other manufacturers are left in the dark on such innovations. What is it?

I don't think ERA or FFR are sitting on their butts and doing nothing while SPF keeps on improving their cars.

I have seen ERA's going back to 20 year old cars. I think one would have to be blind to think that they are not or have not been constantly improving on their cars. I would venture to guess, so have the other manufacturers. Some may be not so obvious to those who own other brands.

If a car needs too much improvement, it speaks volumes about the earlier ones. Just like CSX cars.


I think earlier CSX cars, however valuable were a handful to drive. Well outside of my driving skills at performance levels. I think the current crop is a big improvement over the earlier ones.
So, you see, no one has the lock on improving on their cars. Not FFR , not even SPF.


TURK

[Excaliber]

Any car with 600 hp is EASY to wreck and the SPF isn't that different from any other Cobra when it comes to the laws of physics and power to weight ratio.

Anyway,,,,,"new cars" built on an "old car" principle increase the desirability of the old car and help sales of the new! It's a win win! The new Austin/BMW Mini is a good example of this. The "old" ones are certainly more valuable now that the "new" ones are back!

New T-bird, old T-bird same thing as above. It will be the same for the new GT(40) and the old GT-40.

A "new" FORD" Cobra will be a tough call. In my opinion Fords use of the NAME "Cobra" has been associated with MUSTANGS for so long I think it has become "diluted" (watered down) in some respects. They HAVE to use Shelby to re-associate the NAME away from Mustangs and BACK to the "real" meaning of the name. The "new" Cobra may well be as different as the new T-Bird is from the 1957 T-Bird (are they even from the same planet)?

Trademark names are BIG buisness, THATS what they will be marketing as much as the "car" if and when it happens. Is the new Mini a "real" Mini? How about the new T-Bird? Well,,,,,,Yes and No, the debate there could go on for months!

Is the CSX4000 series Cobras "real" Cobras? No question in my mind! Built (ordered, supervised, looked after) by the SAME man doing it the SAME way he did in 62! Gathering up a "team", lining up "suppliers" and "building" HIS car, HIS way, JUST LIKE HE DID BEFORE!

Now WHO built the new Mini's? Or the T-Birds for that matter? Those cars are totally different than the originals in virtually every detail. The Mini did a much better job of retaining the original "look/feel" however. Heck, lets throw VW Bugs in the hopper while were at it! The ones made in MEXICO are much more "real" than the "new ones"!

The new GT(40) appears to be pretty accurate to the "old" one, I think that was a smart move on Fords part and well done! I don't think they have a prayer doing that with the "new" Cobra however. It will be WAY to hard to "hide the air bag" for openers!

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Bandit: I sure there are some that would opt for the SPF. My statement was that I believe that the majority would rather have a "Shelby" if a entry level Shelby glass Cobra could be priced at around $37K in roller trim or an entry level Cobra with simplier chasis with donor suspension and drive line like the Thunderbird stuff on the SPF. I believe that most would rather have a Shelby when choosing between comparable cars This I believe to be true and if I were a betting man thats where I would put my money. This is doubley true if they are able to price a glass CSX with original style chasis and specs in roller at around $40K. SPF would be in deep doodoo.

First you say the SPF is the "winner" vs. a Shelby. Why? Because it has a 514 cu in motor?. So? The 460 is considered by many to be way too big and heavy. That sure doesn't make it a winner in my book. Moreover what makes you think 600 hp car is easier to handle than 500hp car? I would bet there aren't many that would even be able to tell the difference from the seat of their pants between the two. Can you?

Now I suppose you are about to say "well the SPF has a superior chasis that the CSX continuation Cobra" Thats bunk! No sale! Where is your emperical data to back that claim up? SPF owners keep spouting that propaganda. Where is the proof. What is the torsional rigidity of the SPF compared the CSX? And assuming there is a difference in torsional rigidity will that difference even come into play considering the cornering capabilties of the suspension and tires available? Well? Please give me the facts and stop with the propaganda BS I alway here from SPF owners.

Is SPF a nice product. Yes. Is it nicer in fit and finish to the CSX rollers. Sorry. No way. I've seen both. Both are comparable. In fact an argument could be made that the CSX is nicer especially if you are talking aluminum considering the difficulty factor in working with aluminum.

CAV makes a nice product. I've seen a number of the GTs. Don't count them out making a comparable product in fit and finish to SPF. Shelby wouldn't have his name on it unless its a quality product IMHO. So while I have suffered a concussion or two playing hockey over the years I still smart enough not to count CS out at any time.

Ernie: Good points. I agree.

[Russ Dickey]

IMHO, I don't think that Shelby and Ford will be producing any kind of 2-seater sports car together. Ford will leave that to Carroll, (although I have heard rumors that the supercharged 4.6 Ford might be the next powerplant of the Series 1).

With Ford's recent retro-releases of the Mustang line, ie. Bullitt, Mach 1, and the rumor floating around that the Boss isn't far off, I have the sneaking suspicion that the Ford/Shelby collaboration will come via the newly re-styled '05 Mustang. I think that a 2005 Shelby GT-350 Mustang is probably a pretty good bet (and pretty cool too, I might add). I also wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of commemorative Shelby version of the GT-40 (it would be nice to see a "Ken Miles Edition" - the car that really won Lemans in '66).

However unlikely, I think it would be great to see Shelby and Ford get together on something a little more sporty than the Mustang. It would be nice to see Ford have a two-seater sports car that is in the same class as the Corvette and Viper, with a similiar price tag. The GT-40 is awesome, but c'mon..$125K+? I know a few of you on this forum can afford that, but not the rest of us. Plus, it's very limited production run assures that we will hardly ever see one on the street, as they will be purchased and then parked away in a plastic bubble, only to come out again for the Barrett-Jackson auction in 2030.

Russ

[BANDIT 1]

You all assume that everyone is buying a Cobra for it's "resale value", "it's a real Shelby Cobra", or "for road racing".

Evan:

I by no means was saying the SPF was the only modern Cobra, My comments were about the conversation between Mr. Semko and Mr. Dickey on the choice between a "CAV" Shelby Cobra or a SPF Cobra.

Mr. Excalibur:

I have driven fast cars and bikes for years, as I said (and quote me...) the Superformance Cobra's (even the 600+ horsepower cars) are very easy to drive, period. I am not comparing them to anything, I am only making a statement to the quality and design of the Superformance Cobra's.

Evan:

Do some research on engine weights before you make crazy statements. The 427 s.o. engine isn't 1/10th the engine the 460 engine is, ask ANY engine builder.

It is FACT that the 427 Cobra's were not that easy to drive. Do you really think that ERA, SPF, JBL, etc... haven't been able to improve on the suspension, chassis, brakes, steering, etc.. of a almost 40 year old design?

Why don't the CSX owners quit bragging all of the time and have a one-on-one competition (in a featured magazine) against a 427c.i. S.O. CSX4000 Cobra and a 514c.i. (overweight) Superformance Cobra (T-Bird chassis and all). The Superformance Cobra (at $50,000.00 less) will beat the CSX4000 Cobra at everything except for excuses why it lost every competition.

[Russ Dickey]

You know, it would be nice for some magazine to do a road test of these cars. However, to get a true measurement, all cars would have to be powered by the same engine, with same transmission, same rear-end gearing, with the same size wheels and brand of tires, and driven by the same guy. Then, put them all through their paces:

-on a dragstrip for acceleration times and E.T.
-on a skidpad for lateral g's
- in braking distance
- on a road course
- in a slalom
- in top speed

I think that's the only way to find out which replica truly performs the best overall. If you have guys out there with FE-series big blocks vs. 385-series big blocks vs. small blocks, you'll never get a true comparison of the cars themselves. Each of those engines would give the car a completely different performance characteristic.

Obviously, this is a pipe dream due to the expense of putting all these identical cars together, but then we'd at least have an answer to this burning question. Then, all a perspective buyer would have to do is see how the cars ranked in performance, and rate that against the accuracy of each and..... oh boy, here we go again.

Russ

[REAL 1]

I'd have to defer to the "racers" for a performance comparison between the 460 and the 427SO.

I'd be willing to bet there wouldn't be that much of a difference.

On that heads up comparision between a BB CSX and a BB SPF I wouldn't be so quick to bet the farm on the SPF.

[Russ Dickey]

Bandit:
Let's forget about the SPF vs. CSX for a second. What if I'm comparing an FE-powered SPF to a 460-powered SPF?

I guess I'm confused as to where the 460's advantage is. I know that they can be built to have 500+ hp and 500+ ft lbs of torque, but so can an 427 or 428 FE.

One would think that the 460 would have the advantage on the dragstrip, but from what I've seen, both will run low to mid-11 second times (if equally prepared). There are street-legal FE-powered replica Cobras right here in KC that turn 11-second ET's on street tires, and Nick Nero once told me that his original CSX went 10.80.

So from there, you have to look at handling and braking. The 460 is heavier than the FE, so the obvious assumption is that the FE car will win that race, too.

Besides the fact that the 460's are cheaper, where do you feel that they have the edge over the FE's???

Russ

[Keith Lyles]

Oh Boy !! Sounds like a challenge is brewing. CSX 4000 427 vs SPF 427. No holds barred, run what you brung, mama put the kids to bed cause it's time for the big boys to play. Man I can hardly wait to see the interest in this thread from a showdown match like this. Isn't that what "Run and Gun" is all about ?

[REAL 1]

In order for any shoot out to mean anything the cars have to be comparably equipped and set up and have the same driver(s).

Otherwise its a waste of time.

[HIQ]

Don't know about the cars but the better driver would win.

[wtcobra]

No power adders, single carb, standard transmission, Shelby block FE, dana 44 IRS, DOT tires and I have run a 10.3 at R & G. I can do better if I took off the standard windshield and ran slicks. A perfect run now will probably put it in the nines. My 91 Contemporary still looks pretty good and is streetable. I have seen very few FE SPF's, and none that I couldn't out run if they were equipped the same.

Wayne Turpin