A longer wheel base is in or the jbl would be out. If the jbl or spf costs more than an ffr, you can look at the lap time difference to help determine if the cost is worth it. I don't think cost should be an issue. Scott

Richard,

As delivered, a 351w will not fit any Shelby chassis. Customers have put them in, but it is a custom deal. Headers would be custom also. The spec cars use solid motor mounts which are also custom.

Sounds like a neat comparison though! :)

DOH!!!! Of course the longer wheel base cars are "IN"!!! :LOL:

....what was I thinking!

Ernie

Sounds a little excessive, 5 laps at Willow in October to heat the tires? 10 laps to figure who's the best?
If the driver, or drivers really know the track and have driven there in timed events so they know how to put together good laps, and as already been metioned he must be consistant, he or she should get your results in 5 laps max.
But you want to find the best "Handling" car not the fastest car. So a Slolom would be a better format than Willow's long sweeping banked road course. Are you planning to clock corners times at all the corners and measure g forces?
By the way:
Could some one tell me why you'd want or even need a overdrive 5th. at Willow with a 3.55 rear end unless your running go-kart wheels? Seems to me that you spend more time going up and down the gears, than your taking seconds off the clock.
In 1972, with the Trans Am Championship winning AMC Javelins, the cars weighed 3200lb. and we ran 4:30's with a 4sp. and George Follmer ran 1:28's in testing.
My brother and I ran our GT-350R there in the '60's with 3:89's and eventually we went down to a 4:11 and it was faster. Went from low 1:37's to low 1:36's just like that! It's still about how long it takes to get from A to B, not how fast your going when you get there.

just to make things fun are you guys going to invite a Z06 to the party??
Roland

Bruce, most of the stock cobras come with tremecs, so I think thats why. I think richard has run 1:28's at willow in a stock jbl. The only other cobra that I have seen under 1:32 is a spec racer with John Morton driving, like 1:25's. Good luck catching the Jbl at willow even with a good driver. Scott

Bruce R,

The Tremec gearboxes are used in most of the cars built today. Therefore, I feel that this is a proper requirement as it fits the majority of the vehicles as built.

Also, I spec'd a 3.73 rear gear. Now, with a 3.73 you are going to need 5th gear at Willow. Chuck Miller's car (351 crate engine) has a 3.55 rear ratio and I am against the rev limiter (6500rpm) in 4th just past the pit entrance. (By the way, the rear tires on his are 315/35/17 not go kart tires) Some how it does not seem intelligent to drive 50% of the pit straight with the engine banging against the limiter. I would rather shift to the next gear.

(Also, the TA cars ran a few more revs than 6500. Therefore gearing would be different. If you noticed, I spec'd a 351 Ford crate engine. They are safe at 6500, any more and I would worry.)

As to the amount of laps. I am assuming that folks will have NEW Hoosiers on the cars.

Therefore, five laps to scrub them in and for the driver to get used to the behavior of the car.

Ten laps to allow for mistakes, still learning the car, etc. etc. I feel that ten laps would be correct and all of the cars would get a fair chance at their best time. Ten laps will only take 17>18 minutes worst case.

Hey, if you do not think that the Long course at Willow shows anything about handling, use the short course. but driving a car through cones leaves me a bit non plussed.

(Shades of Motor Trend testing, they drove a JBL through their cone things at Pomona a number of years ago at 76 mph. Or so they said, seemed pretty bogus to me. I did not see any timing stuff and the speed seems too high compared to the other cars they were testing.)

-My thinking for a "typical" FFR in that regard would be:
Solid axle, 351 "crate type engine", all standard amenities, Mustang II type suspension in front. You know, something like a "typical" guy might build on a "budget". FFR's stongest point IS the "budget" approach after all.-

Excal, Mustang II front end? You must be counfused with the replicas out there that use the Pinto suspension. The standard FFR uses a late model Mustang spindle and lower control arm, (tubular lower is an option) adjustable tubular upper and coilovers.
I think this is hilarious, and yes I know (at least I think) it's simply an theoretical exercize. C'mon, comparing cars that are either lower end cost-wise (FFR, Hunter, Backdraft etc) and cars that attempt to exactly replicate a 40 yr old design (SPF, ERA, Kirkham, Shelby) to a F-1 chassis with what looks sort-of like a Cobra body on it.
Now the JBL is a truly awesome machine and a marvel of engineering genius, but it's no more a 'Cobra' that Bart Carter's Levy-built wonder (though at least that car retains the original wheelbase) They are both way out into race car territory and no more related to what SA put out than a new Vette is to the 50 yr old original.
At any rate, it makes for interesting reading, carry on! :)

Scott, No "original" Cobra from the factory in the '60's ever came with a Tremec or any other 5 speed trans. My brothers 1964 289 that he bought new in 1964 from Shelby's dealership Hi-Performance Motors in Los Angeles, has a Borg-Warner T-10 Trans in it. He still owns it, pretty good $6000.00 investment eh?
1st. (2.36), 2nd. (1.78), 3rd. (1.41) 4th. (1.1) with a 3.77 in the rear end. My '66 street GT-350 had a Borg-Warner as did our GT-350R.
Most or all of the Big Block cars came with Top Loaders.

I'm was talking real Cobras here, built buy Shelby in the '60's. Not Reproductions, kits or Mustang Cobras.

Those are some real good times. The last time I was on Willow was 1988 driving one of those German cars with motor in the wrong end. And the street legal Yokohama A008-RS tire we were using were much better tire's than the Goodyear racing tire's were in the late sixties. The track had some suttle changes from the '60's for the better. I'd love to drive a Cobra, or a GT-350R out there again and see how I'd do 35 or so years later. If everthing goes right, I'll do it soon.

John is a good friend of mine, I've known him since the BRE days. We live about 5 miles apart, next time I see him I'll ask him about it. He's gone alot faster than that out there. I was at Electromotive Engineering in 1988-9 when he drove thier Nissan GTP car with Geoff Brabham, and those cars were serious fast.
What kind of Specracer was it?

I always thought a JBL was a Stereo Speaker. No? Damn!

Sorry I don't know all the manufactures.

Why not have every manufacturer enter a stock/standard car in the One Lap of America. That should show which chassis works best. I believe SPF did this a few times and did really well. Why not. What about Run and Gun? Why not have every manufacturer commit to enter a standard car with certain things like the diff ratios, standard crate motor with standard carb, same comparable tires. Everyone would have to put on a decal with the claiming price for that car, and anyone participating could buy that car for that price after the event. That would show what you get for your money, as far as performance goes. Of course the upper-end cars with leather and Smiths, and knock off's as standard would look bad even after winning. The cheaper kit cars like the FFR and Lonestar etc. with bolt on wheels, vinyl and the lesser cost items that have nothing to do with performance would probably look the best when comparing to a car with better standard equiptment. Maybe the price should have nothing to do with it. Just the performance stuff, like tires, ratio, and engine trans. No need to worry about a Tremec TKO vs a standard one as the 5th gear ratio would never be used. If you let each manufacturers get their own pro driver, then you wouldn't have to worry about anyone getting to the "chose" driver and him laying back or not driving each car to the fullest.

The engine could only be bought 30 days before the event with a receipt provided and an agreement that they be sealed by painting some bolts.

What do you think?

Margin of victory among that many Cobras would still be measured in small increments. The driver skills would make the difference. Unless you can find 6 or so drivers who are so equal in their abilities and that neither one is having an off day, you would never be able to attribute the success for the day to any of the cars own capabilities.

I agree with Richard, the solution is not bunch of drivers but one neutral driver who does not have an axe to grind.

TURK

This is really shaping up to be a spectacular bucket of fun. I do have some comments.

Most of us prefer to chose our own driver. If we can't agree on it, then we want professional drivers who can nail consistantcy lap after lap. It's the only way to rate the cars fairly.

Second, as I understand it, we are going to tag on a few laps to an already scheduled event. Then we should limit each manufacture to one entry. We won't be allowed to add a day to the event with 20+ cars.

As far as price goes, run what you sell. FFR offers an IRS package, so run one. The point we are attempting to prove is this:

"Which is the best handling car?" This will show the purchasing consumers what they are paying for. If a $30,000 car runs within a second or two of a $60,000 car, do you consider your car a looser in the event? I hardly think so, let the consumer base his purchasing desicion on real data.

Let's go MANUFACTURERS, STEP UP!!! There will be no losers, only the Cobra Manufacturing community putting on a show and tell for it's customers.

Boudy

Cobra Track Challenge
 

Richard,
I might have the venue for you to run this challenge. :)
And I hire the very people you seek. (ie Morton, MistressMotorsports Mike, Paul Goduti, etc...)

Call me if I can help...(562) 618-0612
Stephen
Cobra University

If professional drivers could turn consistent times, lap after lap, they wouldn't be racing they would be walking around with their times printed on their sleeves, it would suffice to show the tther drivers what their times were and based on those nubers we would declare a winner before they start the race.

Golfers do it with their handicaps.

Wait , even those guys have to play 18 holes to see what kind a day they are having. At the end of the day, you wouldn't want to declare PING as the best set of clubs, based on how Tiger shot that day,would you?

Inconsistencies in the drivers are enough to make one car perform better than the other, and the results would not mean a thing.

This is about the cars, right? Which car is performing better.


If it was about the drivers I would insist we put them all in an identical car, not similar cars. See the point?

TURK

OK. Can't anyone keep a secret anymore?

Wow, cool thread. I'm honored that Richard thought of me for something like this. If it happens, and you all still want, I'm happy to do it. Rest assured I'm consistent and qualified, as are any number of others I could name. I'm also happy to do some of the organizing whether or not you want me to drive. Let's see where this thing goes, and if it looks do-able, I'll jump in and help organize, drive, whatever is needed.

Mike

Actually, this makes the most sense for all manufacturers.

Wouldn't this challenge be a little more"fair" if it were to take place at a neutral race track? After all, certain cars have been dialed in to Willow with possibly hundreds of laps, making their settups optimum for that specific track.And running on that particulare track does nothing to tell us how these things handle in emergency conditions,(that's where the slolom comes in, simulating an emergency lane change. Or panic braking )Why not call Motor trend ,or Car and Driver, set the test up how they do the ones for regulare cars.

Um, sorry Bart. Gimme a ride in Vegas next month and I promise to sin no more. :)

Mike

Thanks Mike.

Turk: I'm thinking that if we use one driver and he's on, then he's on. If he's having a bad day, he's likely to have a bad day in all the cars.

I'd prefer to use more than one driver as different cars tend to cater to different driving styles. Then we have all drivers drive all cars.

You could reasonably expect to see the faster cars consistantly turning faster times.

By consistantcy, I mean drivers with enough exerience to run 10 laps and not have them vary by 10 seconds each. How can you compair cars in that scenario?

Let's do it at several tracks next year. Most manufacturers will attend several events anyhow.

Boudy