My input bearing retainer is too long
 

I tried to bolt my tranny up this morning...it would go in so far...and would mesh in the clutch splines, but it wouldn't go any further. I did some measurements before hand to make sure the pilot wasn't too long...etc...But I rechecked it anyway....even the diameter of the pilot. I got to looking, and the hub around the splines on the clutch disc itself had a mark in it....the input shaft bearing retainer had been rubbing up against it, keeping us from shoving the tranny in any further.

I really don't know what to do, except for cutting the retainer down a little bit. It's a Toploader 4-speed...1-1/16 input, long pilot....small block Ford engine, with a Hays clutch and pressure plate.

Anyone got any suggestions? Should I do this? Should I try to find another clutch disc that would be compatible? I've attached a pic and will show you where it's hitting....

Clutch driven plate the right way around? Just a thought.

Yeah, the clutch disc has its flywheel side against the flywheel.

Oh well, worth a try. Sorry.

What kind of bellhousing are you using?

Lakewood scattershield....

Guys, I really need some brain storming here. I've racked mine trying to figure this out. I called David Kee to ask him about some things....I thought I could just cut the bearing retainer down, but he said he had never ever heard of that being done on a SB. He thought either the clutch disc was too thick or the flywheel was too thick. So, I went out and measured each of them and compared them to some McLeod items he had on the shelf.

1. My clutch disc was 1.025" thick. His was 1.067".
2. My flywheel was 1.060" thick. His was .930".

Even with my flywheel a little thicker (.130") the .042" thinner clutch disc takes that differential down to .092". I know that's quite a bit...it's bigger than a 1/16" of an inch....but the tranny was stuck out about a 1/4"...it was stuck out so far I could barely see the bolts on the input bearing retainer.

The input bearing retainer was one that I bought from David Kee. We even measured the lengths of those...they were the same.

We pulled the tranny out, and even slid a new pilot bearing on it to see if that was the problem...it slid on perfectly fine.

I am using a block plate with the bellhousing....and the bellhousing is a 15200 Lakewood...designed for a Toploader and a SBF.

I really have come to a halt on any ideas...I'm hoping some of you more experienced tranny'ers can help me out.

What is the length of the transmission shaft sticking out of the front of the trans? What is the depth of the bellhousing/scattershield? Do the splines of the clutch match the splines on the trans shaft? Does the throwout bearing slide on the shaft smoothly? Is the pilot bearing the correct size for the back of the crankshaft AND the front end of the trans? Maybe you need to take the trans out, unbolt the bellhousing , remove the clutch and throw-out bearing, and reassemble outside of the car. Measure the distance the front of the trans sticks out thru the bellbousing. Does that measurement jive with the back of the engine?

A couple of suggestions: When the pressure plate is tightend down to the flywheel, be sure and remove the little wooden/plastic blocks that hold the release levers from hitting on the pressure plate itself, they are installed during manufacture, in your picture they still appear to be in place. Are you using an OEM engine plate? The aftermarket ones are thicker by approx .070.
As said previously be sure clutch disc has correct side toward engine. Once you have verified that parts are correctly oriented take a few measurements and it is a real simple job to shorten the bearing retainer. It's only functions are to obviously retain the input bearing but secondly to provide a surface for the throw-out bearing to slide on. If it actually needed to be shortened a minor amount I would not anticipate any problems in doing it.
Have you used an alignment tool while installing the disc & pressure plate? Measure carefully before machining. Use Vernier Calipers, or depth gauges.

Rick

Thanks guys...Yep, I've assembled everything outside of the car. I did that first thing before I ever tried installing the tranny. Everything worked smoothly, and the measurements jived.

I'm using the block plate that came with the Lakewood.

I did remove the little metal blocks...the picture was just taken before I pulled them out...

And yes, I used an alignment tool.

My next plan of action when I can get a few extra hands is just mount the flywheel only....put the bellhousing on without the clutch fork and T/O bearing...and mount the tranny. Then I can look up in the clutch fork hole and see how much distance there is between the bearing retainer and the flywheel. I know my clutch disc is 1.025" thick...so the distance has to be greater than that.

Actually I'm not even for sure it's the bearing retainer now...I had two buddies helping me, and since we were scattered all underneath the car, they could see things better than I could....one of them thought that was the problem....and he took some measurements for me.

After I got to thinking of it last night, I went back out and looked some more...he had used a T-square with adjustable stops. He measured from the clutch hub itself to the outside mounting flange of the bellhousing. The T-square was set at 4.125". I ran over to the tranny with the T-square, and that distance was about 1/4" longer than the input bearing retainer.

So I'm even starting to doubt it was that. If it wasn't, I don't know what it was....I know trannies aren't the easiest thing to install, but it really felt like we were just pushing against a wall when we got to that point. I know the splines were in the clutch...I could turn the engine over and the output shaft on the tranny would turn.

I once had a trans that seemed to not want to go in the last quarter inch - I did NOT want to draw it in with the mounting bolts so I went through a lot of what you are going through.

After making sure that nothing was too long I eventually just tightened the mounting bolts and the thing went in!

Are you sure that the marks you are seeing on the pressure plate are from the bearing retainer?

A easy way to see if you have a clearance problem is to stick a piece of clay where you think you might have a problem. If the clay gets smashed then you KNOW you have a clearance issue. This trick also works for measuring air cleaner to hood, surge tank to hood, and piston to valve clearance.

It does NOT work when you are pulling into a parking spot though.

I have found that using a dab of white grease also can be tried. Again, not for when you are pulling into a parking spot.

It was on the clutch disc that I think the bearing retainer was rubbing....it had a little score mark part away around it which perfectly matched the input bearing retainer...I can't really think of anything else that it would be.

Has anyone ever had to trim the input bearing retainer? That would make me feel a little better if someone else has had the same experience.

I really don't wanna use bolts to draw it in. I can see myself spending 2 days putting this tranny together....and then breaking the ear off of it....I think I would just give up the car business all together.

My next plan of action is to mount the clutch disc and the bellhousing....without the pressure plate.....and then mount the tranny....then look through the clutch fork hole and see if it comes close...if not....then I may use the bolt method.

Things
 

I ran into something like this before.

Mine was the wrong pressure plate.

Okay, there are basic things you can check.

1. Ford or aftermarket crank shaft. Silly as this sounds, I had a crank that had an added .050" on the end that was supposed to be cut to make it true.

2. Ford or after market flywheel. If the flywheel is setting out further from the block, this will cause the problem.

3. Is the flywheel bolted up against the crank? If you have it kinked, it will never allow the bell housing and trans to bolt up.

4. The pressure plate does cause this problem.

5. Is the stub all the way against the pilot bearing area ( hitting the crank ).
This is more common than you think on older Fords as the China made clutches are not always cut right. Lay the clutch against the flywheel and see if it is flat on the surface.

6. New Ford or after market input shaft? The shaft itself could be too short. measure it. It like 1 3/8". Someone like David Kee could tell you.

7. Bearing retainer too long? The collective depth should be less than the hub distance to the face of the bellhousing.

May I recommend this test? First, I removed and installed my trans and clutch assembly several times and this works for me ( do what you want ).

With the block on the chain, install inspection cover, flywheel and lock all bolts. Check the flywheel is seated all the way.

Install clutch disc with big nub in and pressure plate. leave bolts loose.

Lift trans to engine and see if it makes it without the bellhousing.

If all is good, place the bellhousing in place and see what happens.

All these other people on this site are telling you about the same thing.

Let us knw what you got.

Just my $0.03

:3DSMILE:

I had a similar problem with a lakewood clutch and a richmond 5 speed. At lakewoods direction I had the hub on the clutch disc ground down to allow proper seating. It seems to me the amont was .050.

I talked to guy who collects 69 torinos ( spelled that one wrong )

He says about half of the clutches he puts in, he has to grind down the hub.

He has something like 15 torinos, all 1969.

Great guy with lots of smarts.

I'm in Louisville right now visiting my girlfriend, or believe me...I'd be out trying this stuff right now. One thing I did think of this morning was the fact that I had test fit the clutch disc on the tranny while the tranny was on the workbench. I'm 100% sure I pushed the clutch disc on as far as it would go....I left it on there a couple of days while it was too cold to work in the garage...and every once in a while I would go give it a turn or two...If the clutch disc was all the way up on the input shaft, and I turned it...then the input bearing retainer would have made the marks that I was seeing earlier. That could explain that....

Like I posted earlier, the first thing I'll do is bolt the flywheel on...and mate the tranny up to see if the pilot goes easily into the pilot bearing...if so...then I'll put the clutch disc on the flywheel (I guess I'll have to secure it somehow) and bolt the bellhousing on...then mate the tranny up. That way I can look through the clutch fork hole and see what the clearances are. If it is in fact hitting it, I'll decide what to do from there.

I'm hoping it is just a lack of experience of putting tranny's in...and the clearances are right...just needs to be persuaded a little more.

One more thing....the fact that I only had about 1/4" to go shows that it's not a problem with the pilot bearing right? The pilot is like 1.125" on this tranny...with just a 1/4" to go, the pilot should have already started up in it. It has to be either the input bearing retainer or just like one of the other members stated...it's just being stubborn...and I could draw it in with bolts.

You have a GIRLFRIEND? Pictures immediately please! Who cares about the gearbox?