Real 1,

The Shelby AC vehicles will all be painted and final assembled less Engine, transmission and runner kit for the targeted $145,000 price.

As for Price's rights to the Frimley plant, tooling or equipment as well as the AC name. I do not think he has any of those rights at this time and have been informed by legal counsel that his management company that was running the production at AC UK declaired bankruptcy in the UK several months ago and lost all rights at that time. He was leasing or had license to use the original tooling, equipment and the facility from or by the AC holding company which reopened the facility themselves after he was forced to close the doors last year.

R Brent Fenimore

Who cares! I just want to go fast; look good going fast; Be loud; Set off park cars alarms; and tell everyone it has 9 Million HP and has a hemi. Most people who ask all the stupid questions don't even know what it is. It is just loud and goes fast. When god comes down from the clouds he will be driving a loud replicar........

Brent:Thanks for your response. Some follow up questions please.

1. What is a runner kit?

2. You stated that JP does not have his "righs .. at this time". What does "at this time" mean? Sounds very strange, unless the british bankruptcy was for total liquidatoin and the rights were purchased back again through the court. Did Lubinsky "re-acquire" those rights through the court or some master in bankruptcy or the like?

3. I do not know British bankruptcy law. Is there a formal SAI statement on the issue raised in #2 or even better a formal court order or the like saying so?

4. Is Jim Price taking any legal action or threatening same with regard to this "limited production" or is he "part of the deal"?

5. What is "limited production?" How many and for how long?

Sorry, but they seem like legitmate questions to me.

Great questions Counselor! ;)

........Dito what Dan said. VERY good questions, Evan. And I'm sure a lot of folks would like to know the answers to them (IF there ARE answers to the Price / AC situation.........I would think the Jury is still out on that.).

I don't think the Fat Lady has sung yet.

Real 1,

1. A runner kit consists of the misc. components needed to complete the drivetrain installation to include Flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, bell housing, shifter, drive shaft, coolant lines, fuel lines, remote oil filter adapter and lines, motor and tranny mounts, batteries, hose clamps, etc. Approx cost $3 to 4K.

2. What was meant by no rights at this time is that Mr. Price had the rights prior to his bankruptcy through an agreement between himself and AC. As I understand it Mr. Lubinsky of course would not need to acquire the rights from the court system in that the rights were not part of Price's bankruptcy and Lubinsky has had the rights to the company and trademark since 1996. The rights were assigned to Price through a management agreement and the bankruptcy as well as performance issues breached the agreement. I am not a lawyer but this is what the research firm in the UK has told us in writing.

3. I will look further into this but a complete report identifying Mr. Lubinsky as the legitimate owner of the name and assets of AC was provided to us by a UK legal firm.

4. To my knowledge Mr. Price has not taken legal action and is not threatening to do so. No Mr. Price is not a part of the Shelby AC Cobra "Deal".

5. As stated the total production will not exceed 50 vehicles per year between the models combined, the agreement is a three year agreement with extension options.

Once again I must state that this is the information that has been provided to us by Mr. Lubinsky and independant counsel in the UK.

R Brent Fenimore

Brent: Thanks for the info.

It appears that if an AC fabricated body and chasis is delivered to SAI and the expected price of $145K for a painted roller is attained we then have: $145k+$30K(engine and trans)+ $3K (runner kit)+$5K approx (dealer prep and installation of the above) plus tax for a total of approx $190K out the door.

I read your responses and based on the detailed info Mark VI has supplied it appears to me as follows:

1. Lubinsky buys AC out of a receivership.

2. Jim Price owner of SPF and Hi Tech supplies AC with various parts for the AC models Mk III and IV's for a period of time. Interesting twist here since a U.S company is now supplying AC parts for their cars. Hi Tech also has connections with Shelby American when Mr. D'Antonio (sp?) the chief designer and engineer for Hi Tech goes to SAI when SAI is starting up again.

3. AC/Lubinsky begins to owe Jim Price mucho dinero and can't pay the debt.

4. AC/Lubinsky starts to have financial problems based on mounting debt.

5. Bankruptcy or some equivilent in England is filed by AC as a receiver is appointed. AC is or is close to dissolution in the receivership.

6. Jim Price steps in to save AC's bacon by agreeing to take AC bodies and chasis for Hi Tech in trade for the $$$ owed.

7. AC lays an egg and can't deliver the "bodies and chasis" to Hi Tech.

8. Jim Price, probably in a effort to recoup his $$$ and save AC comes up with a creative business propostion for AC/Lubinsky. This also fits in perfectly for Jim in light of his raging battle with CS. Jim Price says "you assign me the rights to operate the plant, the rights to the logo and marketing rights to the AC MkIII and MkIV exclusively for 10 years and we'll call it even. Lubinsky says "deal" but I can still make and sell the Mamba and others except the MkIII & IV. Price says OK. Jim Price in essence now has the "keys" to AC for 10 years in exchange for the debt he was owed. Not bad.

9. Jim invests mucho dinero in AC and begins to set up distribution plans in U.S. for the ACs.

10. Lubinsky starts taking steps to market and sell AC MkIIIs and MkIV's. Jim Price calls "foul". Tells Lubinsky to "cease and desist. Lubinsky says "no". Jim Price shuts the plant down.

11. Litigation ensued over licensing and is pending. Possible out come is Jim Price may get "ownership".

Brent, based on the info from MkIV the above is my "interpretation" of it. Based on MK IV's info it doesn't appear the Jim Price put AC into bankruptcy. It sounds as if Lubinsky had it in bankruptcy already and Jim Price acquired the rights to AC production from Lubinsky through a receiver or the courts. It appears based on the info from MkIV that Lubinsky's rights to production, sales and marketing are seriously in question and currently in litigation. Lubinsky may "own" the logo and the AC plant and equip but the "exclusive rights" to use them were apparently exclusively assigned to Jim Price for 10 years. Maybe you guys are not getting the right info from Lubinsky and his lawyers?

Unless Jim Price is willing to just walk away from his licensing rights it appears there are some questions that need to be/should be answered.

Again the above is my interpretation of Mark IV's info as posted on the "Jim Price issue" thread. Can you shed any light on this?

Interesting......................

Just think......if Price ends up going to court with Lubinski, and WINS (which, would seem certain if all above info is correct), then these 50 "AC Cobra's" that are going to be made each year could end up wearing SPF numbers instead of CSX's !!!:LOL:

And the soap opera continues............

Wow....very interesting analysis Evan, and I'm inclined to agree with your view.

But, with all this intrigue, it kind of makes one happy to own a very well-made, nice looking, reliable, fun-driving replica at a reasonable price without all the intrigue and concern over whether the money is well-spent.......doesn't it?

Evan...
 

..in 2002 AC in the form of the AC Car Group Ltd (one of SEVERAL corporate entities that Lubinsky uses for AC) entered into a Company Volantary Agreement (CVA) a UK procedure for avoiding receivership. This "agreement" spells out the amount creditors will receive over a specified period while allowing the company to continue. The details of this were posted on the UK Court Service website listiing all the creditors. Mr. Price is on the list.......as is Mr. Lubinsky who was owed money for his licensing the AC brand to the AC Car Group!:eek: Most of the debt was owed to trade suppliers, the Inland Revenue (UK IRS) wages and local Rates (property tax), etc.

When the corporate trail is unravelled, AC is actually a US Delaware registered corporation. The AC Car Group Ltd did not own any of the trade dress, traemarks or rights. It was also claimed that the tooling was worth less than $5000.00 as I recall. The claim was that it is only valuable if one wants to build a Cobra! Obviously some of the assets were valued a little low....

And Lubinsky now has the new AC corporation registered in Australia! This is where he is orginizing the "rebirth" of AC from!

But hey, just another example of how Mr. Lubinsky does business.:mad:

Rick

And the press release machine marches on..
 

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...p?storyId=7972

This is the Brit take on the story...

Rick:D

Brent,
Your information is erroneous, even within the walls of your own business. The Runner Kit is not $3-4k but rather $6700. unless it has increased over the last year. Call Paul Klucas at Shelby Performance for exact figures.

Jim Price did in fact threaten litigation against Allan Lubinsky with pending issues still unresolved. I will investigate the exact nature of these suits, if they were filed and dispositions. I will post the information when it become available.

MarkIV: Thanks for the info.

Seems like there is more than meets the eye here for sure.

We will have to wait for more info.

Dan: The "out the door price" of the CSX1000 will have to approach $200K based on the above numbers.

This is about what AC was willing to sell a 427 AC for back in the late 90's.

TerrySPf: You are right I think. Jim Prices motive (or at least one motive) was to bring AC under the SPF umbrella to go head to head with CS. No love lost between those two I'm sure.

I suspect Jim Price will not go away easily on this new CS/Lubinsky business venture.

We'll have to watch and see.

Just a query, not expressing an opinion or making informed statements here:

How will AC bodies compare,quality-wise, with Kirkhams? I`m very much pro AC, but it has to be said that the build finish was 'variable', hence Kirkham`s reverse-engineering of 1 half of an original & mirroring it to create their car. The Polish workforce are reputedly unable to work to less than avaition-spec tolerances......Are AC`s production techniques significantly better than in the 60`s, or are you going to find 'no 2 the same'.(does this make them more valuable as unique, unlike the identically perfect Kirkhams?) On the face of it, I would have to choose an AC built Shelby Cobra, now that there is that 'possibilty' for the first time since 1969, but the Kirkham operation looks so much more stable than SAI or AC/Shelby ,in all areas, to call that choice into doubt. (HaHaHa....Like I actually have ANY choice! I couldn`t even afford a new Ford Focus right now!)
So. my real point is, by paying for the Shelby AC Cobra name, are you getting as good as, better than or inferior to a Kirkham ? :JEKYLHYDE

btw, When AC introduced the 289FIA continuation run in the 90`s, it was offered @£125,000 which then was $200,000. $200,000 is now £111,110 a cool £15k saving for us Brits!!!

There is no question that there is the historical connection with AC.

However so much has changed over the years including AC being supplied by American companies with parts. AC having gone through so many permutations and hands. None of the original work force is there and I'm sure they use subcontractors on various items. Questions as to what original tooling still is available persist and whats being sub'd out.

The fact that AC is apparently a Deleware Corporation according to MarkIV and is apparently now being moved to Austrialia. All in my mind dilute the significance of the AC connection.

Some may disagree.

The 427 and the 289FIA where Shelby's babies for sure, especially the 427 being developed, designed and spec'd out by Messers Shelby, Miles, Arning. AC then built the 427 chasis and body to Shelby spec. Shelby but for the cost of labor wanted to build the 427s himself.

Many original Cobras today are reskinned with Kimmons bodies or by McKlusky. Kirkham also notes that there bodies can be used for re-skinning.

There is no question that Kirkham Bros. fabricated Cobra chasis and body take the Cobra to a new level of quality, fit and finish. They are works of art to be sure and an equal if not superior to any AC produced 427 chasis and body.

In the end, at least in my mind the Kirkham Bros. (an American Company) utilize former Russian MiG production technics to produce the Cobra bodies and chasis at an "affordable cost" for Shelby. This is amazing in and of itself and in my mind gives the car an aura of coming off the same lines that the MiGs came off of. Way cool. In short an American Company (Kirkham) building and supplying another American Company, SAI. Many American Companies use off shore production to keep costs down.

I see the Kirkham fabricated Shelby Cobra as the "American" brother to its English fabricated sister.

Both aluminum Cobras no doubt are fabricated by small companies of dedicated craftsman.

Both Aluminum cars are made from different aluminum than in the 60s and with improvements. They are both new. They are both precisely the same specification wise both being built to Shelby's specs for the 427 and 289FIA.

To some it may matter. Not to me. They are both Shelby Cobras. One supplied and fabricated by an American Company one by an Austrialian? company. In the end the 427s were sold here by Shelby as "Shelby Cobras". Thats what they were and thats what they still are.

Today the new Shelby Cobra is ready to launch from Ford. The new modern Shelby Cobra from an American Company.

A Shelby Cobra is as a Shelby Cobra does. (Forrest Gump)

Shelby Cobras all. All fruit from the same Shelby tree.

The above are my opinions. Others may differ.;)

I don't see that it matters how the body/chassis work compares to a Kirkham.

In fact I would assume that the Kirkham body would be better, if not approaching "near perfect".

The value in the AC car is NOT how well it is made compared to others. The value is in the fact that it IS made in England by English craftsman and bears the AC history.

Price vs SAI? It sure looks complicated, but I would not assume J. Price has a case. It appears that presently SAI is in control and I think it will be an up-hill battle for a challenger to change that.

Business, often, is like "war". Peoples lives are on the line. Looseing a contract to your competitor can mean laying off some of your workers. They could loose their house, or wind up divorced because of "money" issues. It's a very serious thing this contracting "war".

To the victor goes the spoils, right or wrong may be lost in translation. I'm NOT saying this is a "good thing" or a "bad thing". It is a "reality", a fact of life.

Ernie

Ernie: To some the AC connection will have value. Agreed.

To me for the reasons stated it really doesn't. Not today in light of all the history.

I see your point Evan, and you do make a good case for a diluted history. It DOES matter to me, it DOES take off some of the "shine".

As for marketing I don't think it will have a large impact on potential buyers. And certainly I WON'T be one, :D due to cost alone! But I sure wouldn't mind haveing one parked in my garage!

Ernie

The runner kit I mention above does not include the transmission due to the fact that it was referred to seperately so the approx. price was less transmission. The runner kit referred to by Dan Semko is a complete runner supplied by Shelby Performance not rounded up by an individual building a car or performing final installation for an owner. The kit mentioned by Dan is very specific and uses top of the line roducts as well as includes everything down to the puke tank, expansion tank, nuts, bolts, wire ties, hose fittings, turkey pan and a lot more detail.

R Brent Fenimore

Evan
 

The "new" AC entity, AC Automotive PTY is not taking the place of the Delaware corporation, it is just a new corporate shell that is used to be the licensee of the brand, etc.

If they actually ever build a car, it will be alledgedly done on Malta by an Austrailian company that is licensed by an American corporation!

Lubinsky hooked up with an Autrailian partner and had a couple of deals going. They arranged financing from VW Credit Austrailia to re-capitalize AC but that deal has gone south.....perhaps someone at VW Credit did some "due diligence" and decided this was not a person to lend money to!

Also perhaps Wilf or one of our other English members can check on the operation of "Verete Automotive" an operation Lubinsky and the Aussie set up to import Aussie Ford Utes to the UK with propane power (and propane accessories...)
As near as I can tell this went nowhere.

Rick