The COB & COX numbers ran concurrent with the CSX production, they were just not for the US market. I`m in work at the moment so can`t 'reference' the details, For a full list of Chassis no`s & dates from AC`s own production ledger, see the last chapter of Rinsey Mills` book, AC Cobra- The Truth behind the Anglo- American Legend.

I do recall that a couple of the last CSX 2*** chassis were re-designated as CSX 300* and that there is a CS2131,CSX2131a & CSX2131 ( the former being the the `63 Le Mans/Willment Cobra, the second being a similar looking car that used to be owned/run by Bell & Colvill{see latest pics in my gallery} and the third being the Willment Coupe.
There are a few gaps in the chassis number order too, I wonder how many of these may have been filled by unscrupulous "Discoveries" of lost cars?!?!?!
(btw,Evan.....we can get 'uncivil' if we try REAL hard!!!:eek: )

Rinsey Mills book sounds interesting but I'm skeptical of the title.

,,,,,you know the "truth" in the Cobra world is a very elusive thing. :D

Ernie

Thank you for elevating me to "Celebrity" status REAL 1, and we've not even been formally introduced. I'd hope you would be upstanding whilst you read my pearls of wisdom - time we introduced some real manners aound here, old chap!!! (though I think we can overlook the matter of your helmet)

On the matter of duplicate chassis numbers - bloody hell, how long have you got! I could bung up your server with the reply to that. Rush out and buy the Shelby Registry, its quicker!!! Only 1400 pages of miniscule type to get through.

The Rinsey Mills book is a worthy effort - he has done his homework, got off his backside and dug up some Good Stuff. Well the photos are worth a look - I just have'nt got round to reading it yet! I would agree about the title since The Truth is always out there - it just depends on your version of it. Just ask the SAAC.

MEEEOWWWW!!!!! Luv it!!!!:D :D :D
I have spoken with Rinsey on many occasions on subjects as diverse as antique gun parts on Ebay to why he doesn`t have a Television:eek: :confused: I have to say that I very much like the man, and mean him no disrespect by calling him 'curmudgeonly' in his ways! I won`t share his opinions here as if he wants them shared, I`m sure he`d be doing it!

Evan - "Brits raise the level of civility"????

I take it you accept my good self as the "exception that proves the rule"?? :LOL:

This thread made me go and buy Trevor's old Cobra book. Sure would have been cheaper if I bought it 10 years ago...seems it is a bit of a collector's item at this point and priced accordingly. :CRY:

I have to stress that I WILL read Rinsey's book, just that other things seem to get in the way, not that it ain't worth snuggling under the bedcovers with!!
Rinsey has always been a bit of a Cobra devotee and I am sure that the excellent reviews the book has received in the UK are justified. (I supplied a photo for his last book and would LOVE to have a chat with him.)

Re the price of my books - sorry, never had any control over that but I always thought they were overpriced as well. My first book, wittily entitled 'Cobra' has increased in value down the years but don't ask me why.

I have to admit that there sounds like there is a bit of confusion as to who has the "real" rights to AC. However, everyone here are all big boys and you have to do your "own" due dilgence and determine for yourself if this is something that you would like to stake your money on at this time. We can all debate the what, why, how, if, where, which of the deal but in the end it is up to the individual to make the call.

The simple fact that Brent F. has even bothered to chime in on this thread should tell everyone that A) He cares, B) He is working on it and C) You have to give him some credit for braving the shark infested waters...

I believe there is a market for a $145,000 Shelby/AC Cobra, and all the rest! Why? Because you all have said you like the pedigree, the history, the lineage, the power, the "going fast" feeling. Lets face facts guys, Carroll is the real deal! He may have a little "showman" in him, and he may be "light" on his feet, but give the Man some due here, he has lived the life, walk the talk, and given his all to what he loves. Can anyone of us say the same?? If you can, great! He certainly can.

Bottom line....Give Brent some credit..Check the facts for yourself...and give the Man his due!

Thanks for listening.

The Deacon

Deacon
 

I have always agreed with your philosophy and was a Shelby owner. I too would only own a car that had Shelby heritage at the time but, the facts of the last 8 years are confusing.

1996 or about - Shelby announces 4000 glass series to combat the kit car industry and re-claim what is his. Those cars needed a lot of work and many had around $90,000 in them. The cheepies at $68,000 plus lacked lots of detail and subsequently remain unsold on the secondary market when offered.

1996 or about - Kirkham announces that they will build a dead on aluminum body car in Poland. All kinds of negative statement were made about these guys and Shelby himself wanted nothing to do with them.

1997 and on - Shelby 4000 customers scream "WE WANT ALUMINUM" so Shelby has the usual suspects(Kimmons, Leahey, Kemper, McClusky etc) start the labor intensive and $$ process of mounting aluminum bodies to the 4000 frame at an up-charge of 20-25K. Then the cars still needed more detail work bringing them in finished well into the $120+ price range. HRE bought glass cars, threw away the glass and re-bodied them at Joe Staffords place in New England who works on Ferrari's. Were any of these real original Shelby's or 4000 glass re-bodies?

1999 or so - Shelby gets in bed with Kirkham because they put out available Aluminum bodies at a price that Shelby can re-sell as CSX cars which in my opinion, he should have done from the start and never even bothered with the Las Vegas fiberglass car because it was too much trouble to get right. Also at that time, Kirkham sell their own painted out the door rollers for around $55K or less. That was a deal but the car was not perfect yet but well on their way to getting there. They were certainly 110% committed and going to be the best game in town for aluminum cars. Shelby now sells Aluminum Kirkham cars with their suspension instead of Kirkhams which in my opinion made no sense. Why pay to do something that 1 was already done and done right and 2 have the opportunity to make it more expensive than it needed to be and potentially make it less right than it was. Kirkham already had Dave Dralle dial in the suspension with certain components. Heck, it wasn't broken so why fix it?

2000 or so - The price wars start. Superformance sells a lot of cars because they come through nice and tidy at an attractive price. They have the up on the glass market because the reality of the 4000 glass car is that you have to spend a lot of $$ to get it right. The Aluminum Kirkham takes off at a price and the Shelby Kirkham goes out the door with non Kirkham suspension at a high price.

Now - Shelby goes after the Superformance market on the low end at 39K hoping to take away their market share with a car built in the same place as SPF. Will it work? Maybe, if the CSX car is really good quality. Shelby goes on selling CSX kirkham cars at a 20K premium over Kirkham. Kirkham does a 39K Aluminum car that needs more than that to get it out the door but still a very significant savings over Shelby but no CSX provenance. But then what does the Kirkham CSX provenance really mean? A lot of CSX emotion?

And Now Again - Another addition to the mix. Defunct a few times over, AC gets back into bed with Shelby to make the cars he probably should have made from the start back in '96 with the 4000 series. Remember the COX cars from Angliss? They were suppossed to be CSX 4000 cars but Shelby and Angliss had it out for eachother and couldn't agree on who made the Cobra semantics. Now Lubinsky and Shelby are together with the AC deal. Will they make cars in quantity that will make sense? Will they hurt their Kirkham Shelby sales? Will the price have to come down on those to warrant the AC price or will everyone now want an AC? Will the AC be made by great craftsman or will it just be a name? When all the smoke clears, who will be left standing? I have my bets down as to how the future history will sound but I will keep those ideas to myself for now.

Spot on, 4027.

Plus s'a change, plus s'a meme.

Men with minds open too far, risk losing brains under heavy braking!

Steve,

Thank you for a perfect summarization of what many of us, less informed, have felt for a long time. Extremely well done....succinct and to the point.

Registry Issues
 

I am also a firm believer that Kirkham non CSX cars should be listed ib the Shelby registry for the following reasons;

-They are true to form and are used by Shelby American

-It will keep the record straight for the next generation as to which Kirkhams were born with a CSX number and which magically appeared.

Also, Shelby glass cars that had dealer installed aluminum bodies or subsequent aluminum re-body should be listed as such.

I feel this will help from future opportunistic pricing.

Steve,

Hold on, are you telling me if I make a 275 GTB true to form it should be a Ferrari. Sorry I do not think that bird dog will fly!

Allan

Allan
 

I understand what you are trying to say but, I think your missing my point. If you made that 275 not only for yourself but, had a contract to sell them to Ferrari who then sold them to the end user with Ferrari documentation then, the independently produced ones may one day be sold as Ferrari's confusing the market and unsuspecting buyer.

The SAAC registry is to big and to complex and has to many "off the wall" listings all ready. AC (English) cars should NOT be listed in the USA version. Which I believe is precisley what the SAAC is.

Stands to reason they SHOULD be tracked by somebody in some way. Many years down the road there could CERTAINLY be confusion or "duplicate" cars.

Ernie

Ernie

If that`s the case, there should be nothing in the registry for `62 onwards 289`s??? Is anyone outside the US not allowed to 'register' their cars? My Dad`s car is in the registry(although they got his name wrong!!!) Despite having never been to the US ,ever. But it is one of the most important cars in the Cobra history, despite never bearing the Shelby name. Delete?

Isn`t the SAAC the registry of "Shelby American" vehicles, not the the American registry of Shelby vehicles?
I personally feel that the Kirkham badged (KMP)cars do not have a place in the registry, as they started out as a separate entity, but this in no way belittles their quality.
Maybe there should be a KPAC registry? :p

IMHO, CSX 4027 is likely correct, for his reasons stated. In the end, the concept is to keep stuff straight and Shel' isn't helping at all with his own machinations and variants.

I am reluctant a bit, however, certainly not because the Kirkhams bits are the best ever fabricated, because they are just so. It would be nice to KISS. It's too late, however.

Given Shel's own hopping and skipping around, CSX 4027 is correct. Without such a sequential guide, established today as a contemporary record, the future will bring a rash of swopped bits and numbers...even more than the original cars migrated around.

Without a contemporary record, like the original AC Cars, Ltd. book-bound records we all rely on (rather than Shel's dodgy tax-induced number/parts jumble, which skill he learned from el Commendadore), the detail will be hopelessly lost in time to profit-induced memories and wishful thinking.

Sort of like today...only much worse.

Ernie... you need to constantly be reminded of the implied 'hyphen'.:p

SAAC is the Shelby(-)American Automobile Club... with Shelby American being the name of the old company...

...not the Shelby (pause..pause) American-Car-Club.

The inclusion of the AK's by SAAC reinforces the recognition of the partnership over the years between Shelby and AC in the development and production of the Cobra.

Cobra = AC chassis + American V-8

CSX's 62-68, COB/COX and AK's thru the years.

..just like they handle the evolutions of the GT-40.

Makes sense to me. Any club that includes the GT-350's, ne:Mustangs, must, of definition, be a Shelby-American Club. Even this club of occasional zoned-out Shelby zombies doesn't contain members that would call a 350 a Cobra, does it?

Smile.

In the day, only the po' folks and the wimps that like carrosels owned and raced 350's. We used to make book on who would be the first 350 to spin-out in Bp (SCCA B production class) and take out a few 'vettes and the rarer Bp Tiger, then we could relax and enjoy the cruise to the finish line.

The real fun was if you could lap them and get behind with a little pressure and watch 'em head for the taller grass with great sturm and drang, dust and waving arms. Good grief how they objected to being passed by clearly superior cars!

Of course, you had to avoid getting collected, either on the course or in the pits, later. Some of them wimps were big!

And great friends.

It seems strange to me to have a COB car listed in the same book "Eleanor" is listed in.

But OK, I guess the point here is that the SAAC is controversial for some and various authors would change it in various ways.

62-68 COB-COX's are certainly valid years I would include. After '68 I would carefully consider ONLY cars with a direct tie in to Shelby, continuation cars (4000 series etc.) for the SAAC registry. Having said that I CAN see the logic for including certain Dodge cars, etc. (painful though it is).

I think I'm still missing something on the Shelby----American Auto Club title thing. With or without hyphen it still looks like "Shelby" to me.

Ernie