CSX vs. Kirkham

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

One other difference, actually there are many upon many, between the two cars is that the Kirkham does not adhere nearly as much to original as a CSX in terms of specs. A few examples are: 1) the Kirkham has one battery in the trunk. The CSX has two batteries behind the seats like the original, 2) the gauges on the Kirkham have the appearance of Smith's but actually have an LCD display for the odometer and fuel gauge (optional), the CS gauges do not, 3) most CSX's that I ran across have a Toploader for originality, but most later Kirkhams are setup for the TKO600. So, besides the alloy versus fiberglass decision, you will also have to decide on the level of adherance to the original versus subtle "modernization." Again, a very personal choice.

Well, that brings up another point - there are many variances on both brands, depending on their production dates. Your points are valid, but they are also NOT valid. Depends on the individual car. Some KMPs use the dual battery, and some CSXs use a single. Gauges have also changed a few times on both brands. And as for trans type, Kirkham frames are made for the 4 speed, but they sell an adapter for a 5 speed, whereas you can order a CSX setup for either trans when it's built.

The "current" versions of both cars (as if you were going to buy either brand new), are very much different. The Shelby is still faithful to an original car, with just the brakes and shocks the only major hardware differences. The Kirkham boys are always improving things on their cars, and always making more and more parts to their own spec, and in house. The current KMP is a great machine, with lots of new engineering into it, but at the cost of it becoming farther from an original spec car.

That brings us to the point that 767jockey has brought up.... if you want a car that's faithful to originality, you'll be re-doing a LOT of stuff on a current KMP.

So really, which car is a "better" value, comes down to what the individual buyer is looking for in a car.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

The current KMP is a great machine, with lots of new engineering into it, but at the cost of it becoming farther from an original spec car.
That brings us to the point that 767jockey has brought up.... if you want a car that's faithful to originality, you'll be re-doing a LOT of stuff on a current KMP.
So really, which car is a "better" value, comes down to what the individual buyer is looking for in a car.

Exactly what I was TRYING to say, only said much better. Thank you, Sal.

[alpace@pacificp]

Rod,

The items you mention as comparative differences are significant. However, the more I begin to realize that most of the 'shelbys' on the road simply flatter, but cannot replace the original, I begin to wonder if chasing a 'tue to form' replica is an oxymoron??

[RodKnock]

Sal is absolutely 100% correct. I should have qualified my statement by saying that I was attempting, poorly I might add, to compare brand new rollers. Bottom line for me, was that I delayed my purchase for a very long time sorting through all the issues mentioned above and many others.

On top of it all, my decision to buy was further complicated with the new versus used question. In that regard, a car like Alan's above already has the infamous CA SB100 exemption, so if Al lives in CA and wants an aluminum CSX car, buying Alan's car would be a smart move.

[Allan A]

Tony,

This is Ricks car. CSX 4309 was purchased in 2003 with CSX 4310 and 4308.

Allan

[big-boss]

If you are still on the fence, think of this:
Kirkhams are now in Shelby regestry.
You can get a Kirkham as original as you want to pay for and last I checked it was less money than a Shelby.
The Shelby guys in LV are great the Kirkham guys are greater.
The Kirkham roller leaves just enough work to get dirty but not board-I have built three other Cobras and owned an Autokraft.
I am not a "name brand guy" so the Shelby was no value to me.
I am an experience driven person-Kirkham with the track days and the Family offer the experience I wanted.
The investment is made in the buy or assembly like most other investments. I have seen shelbys sell for in the mid 100's and Kirkhams sell for 90's they both got their money back which is good for a hobby.
Good luck, enjoy the hunt- it really is half the fun.

[alpace@pacificp]

All,

Your input is terrific. Underscoring differences and commonalities between Kirkhams and Shelby CSX (as well as some others) is genuinely helpful...if a bit mind-numbing. That said, I am beginning to believe the following: Shelby is building a car that emulates the original...and the debate goes on as to how 'period correct' and successful that emulation is. As to the Kirkham, I am beginning to believe they are simply attempting to take a good, 1960's concept...sensuous lines, ton of HP, etc....and make it better. They do not appear to be hung up on whether they are delivering a 'period correct car'; rather, they appear to be working diligently on using the best attributes of the original....and making the underlying components 'better'.

I love Shelby...but I wonder if attempting to replicate one that is 'true to form' is a fantasy. Heck, there appears to be little consistency in the originals!

As I sit, the decision is not final. That said, it is clear that while a Kirkham is not a period correct shelby, it is arguably the 'better' car? History aside, I have to wonder why I would get hung up on the SHelby pedigree. This is not an investment...it is a sensuous ride. I have better things to invest in than hoping for a 'shelby' to be recognized as such. I will be long gone....and I will not care when that decision is rendered.....

[lineslinger]

Is anyone else on the road going to know who built your car?
Will they care? Will you?
Or, do you care about who is looking in your engine compartment at a car show?
That difference will only cost you 60K plus for the exact same performance, but you will have that aluminum stamped CSX tag.
Its only bucks, you married?

[Power Surge]

Al, I had a Kirkham, it was a beautiful car. I now own a Shelby. Do I miss the KMP? Sure. It was a work of art. Would I own one again someday? Sure. It's a nicely built car. Is it what I really wanted? No. That's why I own a Shelby. I even tried to convince myself while I owned the Kirkham that I didn't need or want the Shelby. In the end, I was fooling myself. I sold the Kirkham and bought a Shelby. Am I happy with my decision? Yes. Because I have the car I wanted.

Do I think one is better than the other? Hard to say. Both cars are of equal build quality and construction. Sure, the Kirkhams improve their car as time goes on, but don't think that those changes put the Kirkham on some higher level than the Shelby. The Kirkhams "changes" revolve around them being able to make more parts in house, as opposed to "let's re-engineer the car". With every new part they make in house, they definitely try to improve where improvement allows. They have not changed anything on their car that makes it significantly better than a Shelby.

Don't let anyone fool you. Both cars are quality cars, on the same level. Both cars will perform out of the box, and both cars can be improved even better for a higher level of performance.

You need to look inside and really figure out what you want in a Cobra. And then buy that car.

[Stentor]

One piece of advice...

Stop worrying about what folks on this forum say, and make the decision that is right for you.

You are always going to get differing points of view on this forum on topics like this (it's like a political debate).

As mentioned by many others, you can't go wrong with either car--glass CSX or Kirkham.

It sounds like you've done your due diligence, now you just need to push forward and make a decision.

We look forward to seeing pictures of your car (either way you go, I am sure it will be a beauty).

Now you need to focus on who is going to do your install/assembly for you.

Good luck.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Stentor

One piece of advice...

Stop worrying about what folks on this forum say, and make the decision that is right for you.

You are always going to get differing points of view on this forum on topics like this (it's like a political debate).

As mentioned by many others, you can't go wrong with either car--glass CSX or Kirkham.

It sounds like you've done your due diligence, now you just need to push forward and make a decision.

We look forward to seeing pictures of your car (either way you go, I am sure it will be a beauty).

Now you need to focus on who is going to do your install/assembly for you.

Good luck.

Well said...everything else is bullsh!t and guessing, or both.

Only other factor I would consider is whether you want to deal directly with the factory (Kirkham) or go through a dealership (Shelby). I like the former...some have had problems with the latter setup.

[PatBuckley]

Then again, I had problems dealing with the former.....

[RON N BKFLD]

Kmp218x Was(per Dave Kirkham) The First "production" 289 Fia Hybrid With The 4" Frame And 427 Suspension. Before 218x, Kirkham 289 Fia Cars Were All 3" Frame W/leaf Springs, As Were Aluminum 7000 Series Shelbys From Kirkham . With That Said, Kirkham Changes Specs And Options As Improvements Are Made. Call Joe At Kirkham, He Can Answer Questions With The Latest Info...........ron

[Dan Stryffeler]

Buy the Kirkham for the improvements to the icon, and take the money you have left over a buy a Shelby-ized GT-H Mustang.

That way you have the pedigree of the Shelby name, and a choice of car to drive depending on the weather and/or your spouses mood, (I.e. - whether she wants to get her hair destroyed)

Dan

[Lew Ledyard]

Are you going to drive it regularly? The improvements that the Kirkhams have made are generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Most have been aimed at improving quality, consistancy and durability. I drive my Kirkham to work on most days (when it doesn't look like rain) and it is reliable and easy to drive. The choice between taking my Kirkham or another car is really just based on whether it is supposed to rain or not. I may be wrong, but it seems that many Kirkham drivers regulalrly use their cars as "cars".

[Igofastr]

Originally Posted by Lew Ledyard

Are you going to drive it regularly? The improvements that the Kirkhams have made are generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Most have been aimed at improving quality, consistancy and durability. I drive my Kirkham to work on most days (when it doesn't look like rain) and it is reliable and easy to drive. The choice between taking my Kirkham or another car is really just based on whether it is supposed to rain or not. I may be wrong, but it seems that many Kirkham drivers regulalrly use their cars as "cars".

Drive mine to work all the time. Drove it today.

I would reiterate, you CAN specify the Kirkham to come as original as you could possibly want. Remember, they got into business making parts to repair / rebuild originals, and can pretty much come up with an identical copy if that's what you want. Original suspension, no prob, two batteries behind the passenger seat? been doing it for years (they only canged because most customers preferred it that way).

In the end, only you can decide between a plastic car with an aluminum CSX plate, and an aluminum car. Which seems more original to you?

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Dan Stryffeler

Buy the Kirkham for the improvements to the icon, and take the money you have left over a buy a Shelby-ized GT-H Mustang.

That way you have the pedigree of the Shelby name, and a choice of car to drive depending on the weather and/or your spouses mood, (I.e. - whether she wants to get her hair destroyed)

Dan

Not quite sure the price differential between a Kirkham and fiberglass CSX is that much

[joey_hv]

hi, uh sorry to interrupt (ran out of popcorn) quick question, didn't someone mention on another thread that you could "buy" a csx # from Shelby for 10k? so if the quality of the Kirkham equals Shelby (for the sake of argument i am assuming it does) couldn't you just buy a roller from Km and buy the number from shel???
just thinking aloud, carry on, popcorn is ready.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by joey_hv

hi, uh sorry to interrupt (ran out of popcorn) quick question, didn't someone mention on another thread that you could "buy" a csx # from Shelby for 10k? so if the quality of the Kirkham equals Shelby (for the sake of argument i am assuming it does) couldn't you just buy a roller from Km and buy the number from shel???
just thinking aloud, carry on, popcorn is ready.

The car in question that you could supposedly "buy" a csx # from Shelby for 10k, was a Shelby produced body and frame that was sold to someone without a csx number for the purpose of building a race car. Sort of like an illegitimate child that you could take back to the Shelby people to pay to legitimize.

Although most alumimum csx cars start off with a frame and body sourced from Kirkham, I don't think you have any chance of buying a csx number for a Kirkham.

[jdog]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Although most alumimum csx cars start off with a frame and body sourced from Kirkham, I don't think you have any chance of buying a csx number for a Kirkham.

No,but you can buy an alum body for your CSX!

jdog