Roush crate engine/Chesnut-World Products outcome
 

John Chesnut here. I own a small Kit Car company, Dragon Motor Cars. I recently joined the forum as I am currently building one of my dream cars, the 427 Cobra. I plan to offer the car as a kit soon.
While checking out the forum I read the thread, Roush Crate Engines by Chris L. I made a posting about a negative experience I had with a 427 Motown engine that I had bought from World Products. As many of you know my posting caused quite a stir.
Charlie of World Products saw my posting and understandably was not happy about negative comments about his company and product. Charlie acknowledged that there had problems at World Products before his arrival but that stringent quality controls and a new attitude towards customer service had been instilled in 2005.
I won't go into the details of the thread, you can read Chris's thread for that.
I believed that Charlie was sincere. I offered to give his company a chance to earn my respect and a way to show Club members that World Products engines were now up to par and that their customer service was better. To do this I proposed that the take my engine back and exchange it for a Ford engine that I would put into my new Cobra. The exchange would be $ for $. I had spent $9000 for the original engine.
This was a sincere offer on my part. I didn't need an engine as I already had the engine/trans combo that I was going to put in the Cobra. I also had the Motown 427 complete with accessories, through trans just sitting around. I would have had to invest about 5K to use the World Products Ford.
At this point Charlie and I took our discussions private. For the past 2 weeks we have tried to work out a satisfactory resolution. I porposely have not made any threats of possible action if Bill Mitchell did not stand behind his engine. I wanted to give him every opportunity to do the "right thing"
Through out this process, Charlie has treated me with respect. He could have ignored me and he could have tried to discredit my claims. He did not do this. He, acknowledged in the thread and privately that there were problems with the company at the time that I bought my engine. Bill Mitchell acknowledged that the customer service manager that I had dealt with was a "rough customer". He acknowledged that their business had been in chaos and had a big turn over of staff and engine builders. Bill Mitchell jr acknowledged to Charlie that he accepted my statements as facts.
Bill was not willing to exchange engines $ for $ but instead offered a discount on a new engine of my choice. I explained that I didn't need an engine and countered by suggesting that he refund me money, at the same % he had offered as a discount, on the engine that I had already purchased from him. His response was that he would never pay a cash refund.
The fact is that my engines problems were in the past. But despite lip service I don't see any change at World Products. I am left wondering how many people are in the same boat as me.
I will let every one know what I think of World Products and their service. I will do this on my web sites and on literature that I pass out for my cars.
My advice is "buyers beware!" Make sure that when you purchase an engine that you understand what the warrant really is. Who provides it and what the terms are. Make sure you understand if the engine "combo" is dynoed or if the actual engine you are purchasing is dynoed. If you buy a crate engine with a used block make sure that there is a paper trail for that block. In the case of Chevy engines the engine ID number is removed when the block is decked. With out that number on a receipt in some states you can be denied registration! (Happened to me with another engine.) The machine shop can record the number and restamp the block. Make sure you get refrences for a company that you want to deal with and I wouldn't make payment with out having recourse. What if you dont receive it, its defective, or not as specified. Pay with a credit card where you can dispute a payment.
I build my cars for fun. $9000 is alot of money for me. I bought the Motown engine based on advertising claims. Having to deal with a defective engine and a company that doesn't stand behind their product is frustrating and definetly not fun.
Now this matter is behind me and I am focused on creating the ultimate handling Cobra. John

Thanks John for sharing the outcome with us. Sorry it didn't work out the way it should have.
Peter

Yes, thank you John. Personally, I want to know about the businesses that have good, average or bad customer service. I've had my experiences too, as I'm sure we all have, and yours appears to have been presented in a fair manner.

Well since they did admit to having problems in the past with customer service (which I think your problem shows) and Bill owner then & still owner today won't give you what I would think to be a fair settlement "even though it has been years" then what would keep this from happening to some one else now.. or did I miss something.. in life you are remembered more for the things that went wrong than for the things that went right. 1 bad apple spoils the bushel. In the future if I want an engine it will be KC who also advertizes on here as I don't want to try my luck which hasn't been that good lately anyhow. I would really like an all aluminum 427 or bigger in my next project.

Thanks for the update John. After reading all the posts on your problem from both sides, it's obvious to me where the problem lies. I prefer to build my own engines but, if I were to have one built, guess who isn't even on the list of builders. Good luck with your business.

The best warranty is one you never have to use. I feel your pain and admire your tenacity. A buddy once asked me "why do you fight with that flooring company, the money is not enough for you to care about" my reply, I have to fight the guy that does not have the time or resources because if they screwed me they have screwed others, in the end they paid 4 times the cost and I tell every swinging dick who will listen to me the story and it was 5 years ago, rock on Mannington!!

Thanks for the update, John.

I'm sorry that it didn't come out to an equitable conclusion for both parties.

Do you have any picture of the motor?
 

john chesnut John welcome to the CC forum. I don't like jump to one side or the other without see the problems of the motor. Some people get pictures. If you have any could you post them? This company must have some real serious problems to admit this, have a major change of people at skilled positions and not stand behind there product. Bill Mitchell machine shop has been around for over 20 years. There where one of the best SBC builders. I guess they just don't care about the company reputation and standing behind there product. Thanks for the heads up on this company. You can only hope that someone will smarten up, stand behind there products, and make good for the problems and money that have caused you. If not, Sounds like a day in court. With pictures, paper work, and admiting problems, sound like a no brainer to me. REFUND. Let's hope the problem doesn't go this far. I hope you can work out the problem John, again thanks for the heads up. Rick L. Ps do you have any bills you could post on this motor??

Rick Lake the problem was from years ago, from his previous post and a lawsuit probably can't be filed now due to time limitations..

Damn now I know why some here on site build there own engines.. Have a problem you could pull it out of car and most likely have it back in and running in a week if your retired like me

John, bad business practices will catch up with these people...being an entrepeneur you know how important it is to exceed your customer's expectations.
You say that you're contemplating the Cobra biz; tell us more. Is it your mold, what type of chassis, or did you pick someone elses stuff? Are you adding the Cobra to your existing Dragon line, or are you dropping the Dragon cars? You were one of the few Chevy guys out there. What are you doing differently to set your kit appart from the others? Also, just curious, what's the story on DMC66R0504 for sale on Ebay?

My experience has been that every time...without exeption.. that I have trusted a machine shop to assemble a motor for me I have had problems. Now I have had issues on motors I have assembled too, but I have only myself to blame and as correctly said in no time at all and without any back and forth brain damage the problems have been resolved. It is also "never" the machine shops fault.**):eek:

Hey Powerslide, The car on ebay is Brian Whites Dragon series 2. It is one of my cars. I did not know it was for sale but have emailed him to find out. Brian built a Series 1 car and sold it for $75,000. He built the series 2 to replace it.
I am continuing with Dragon. In fact am finishing up a new one that uses C5 Vette suspension and drivetrain on an aluminum backbone chassis. The chassis is similiar to my T bucket that was featured in Kit Car and did so well at Run and Gun. The series 2, steel space frame, C-4 suspension, no doors will continue to be available. The new Dragon is 6 inches longer in the cocpit, has a narrower trans tunnel, and functioning doors. The wheelbase is stock C5 length. My brother in law, Paul Carlson, continues to be my partner in Dragon.
I am establishing a new company with my son, Chesnut Motorsports, to do the Cobra, Daytona coupe, and other cars I have in mind. My Cobra features an aluminum backbone chassis with C5/C6 suspension, brakes, wheels/tires, and differential. I have designed and had machined a new input shaft for the C5 diff that allows the use of a driveshaft. I have had a New steering rack made and new axles made that allow me to fit the C5 suspension and parts in a chassis that accepts a stock Cobra body. My chassis design allows for more cockpit and footbox room. Sway bars are stock in my car and you can use 18inch wheels. I will supply NEW 2004 C5 parts with complete kits.
My chassis allows for Ford or Chevy engines. Shell Valley has my molds for my Dragon bodies and jigs for my Dragon chassis. They make my kits for me. They are providing all of the Cobra parts. I am using their premium Midstates body, hand laid, with a fiberglass/carbon fiber hybrid body. My body is an unstressed skin. The total weight of my Cobra is 1900lbs with the LS2 and T56 6 speed trans that I am using. I will have a 1900lb Z06 Vette with the beautiful and accurate Cobra body. Shell Valley will be building my chassis for this kit. I will be shipping kits from their facility. I will also use their Daytona body as it is designed for the same 90 inch wheel base chassis.
I will sell the kits in parts or complete with everything you need minus wheels/tires, drive train, and body/paint. I know that it is WRONG to put the LS engine in the Cobra but that is what I have. Remember Fords, including big blocks will fit.
My floor height is 4 inches lower than the stock Cobra. My ground clearance is 5 inches. The drivers floor is set at this lower height but I keep the passenger floor at the stock Cobra height. My fuel cell is mounted under the passenger floor. This keeps the weight as low and as centered in the car as possible. I have eliminated weight from being suspended behind the rear axle center line which causes a penduleum effect when cornering. My goal is to create a modern super car with the body shape that we all love. I am launching the car at Carlisle 2008. Kits will start shipping in June. My complete kit is $29,900. I believe that this fills a gap between the mustang based kits and the high end, more historically accurate kits.
Thanks for the question. Let me know if you want more info John

John....you should really consider thinking more "out of the box" ! 1900 lbs., low CG, low polar moment of inertia, awesome power-to-weight ratio, modern running gear...sounds like an excellent plan.....best of luck

Yes the motor is going on 2 years
 

trs900 John wrote in another forum about the problem of the motor using oil and low on power. There was a dyno sheet and the motor was no where near the sheet that came with the motor. There where repeated phone call to World. He was told the motor was not broken in and to drive it. He drove to car at Car shows for Replica car and Run&Gun. I got a ride in it, For what the dragon weight is and the 400hp that was to be, my dually truck with a 350 SBC could run with the car for the first 300 feet. I think If you private e-mail John C. he will give you more info. It is not easy anymore to tell people ( pro engine builders) that they didn't install or check the spec on a part correctly. SHORTCUT'S, almost all builders do for street motors or mild race motors. The other problem is most of these manufacturers of crate motors have people that build 10-50 motors a month and only do a certain assembly part of the motor. Some take great pride in there work others just don't give a $H!T. This motor could have been a monday morning or friday afternoon motor. Pat Musi has his name on motor from GM. Do you think Pat assemblied every motor for GM????:confused:%/. No, He does like a Rabbi and throws holy Pat water on the warehouse and says GOOD LUCK. %/;):LOL::LOL: From what I have seen of John and his manner, He has no reason to deceive us about this problem. There are some other engine builders on the forum that have not sold the bill of goods that where on the paperwork that came with the motors. Again a motor with 1 1/2 years on it was sold with all top of the line parts, the motor had an oiling problem, it was pulled and alot of the qualitity parts had changed into lower grade parts. The bills proved that the parts where ordered and payed for but not installed. This problem have since be fixed. I make mistakes on building my own motors. I will pay on the screwup, but to pay a PRO builder to pull this and the amount of money in volved, Sorry. I wouldn't care if he gave me 2 new motors to be quiet, I would leak it out to save others. These guys know the differents between purpose mistake and an accident mistake. You know that little voice you hear when something is wrong. I listen to him everytime.;):) He has saved my butt more than once. Rick L.

These threads always scare the heck out of me since I have no training with engines. I always feel sorry for folks that end up in a situation where the builder walks away from responsiblity.

On a more positive note, I would like to give some kudos to Southern Automotive because so far, they have been great to deal with (but so far, I haven't had any major issues). I can always get someone on the phone, I have been connected directly with their engine builders and on one occasion, Bill the owner offered to stop by my house and take a look at my issue (I live in NJ and they are in GA). My gut tells me that if I were to have a problem and it was a result of the build (instead of me being an idiot), they would stand behind their work.

John,

I feel for you... I had a builder leave me standing too... In my case he didn't clearance the valves correctly and wiped out my motor within just a few hundered miles. 4K later in parts and machine work I'm back on the road with me doing all the work.

I think I will build my own motors from now on as it seems hard to find a trusted source who can deliver what thy promise and on time....

On a second experience the first complete motor I ever purchased was delivered WITHOUT the internals I paid for, wasn't balanced nor built to the specifications as advertised. I did however get some $$ back, but it wasn't worth the hassle or the 12 weeks of down time....

For those who don't stand behind their product, they deserve all the negative press they get.

Hey John,
Sorry it didn't work out for you. Can't say that I'm surprised though..............
steve:(

We all need to bring these engine builder out into the open
 

Guys If you have had a motor builder problem we need to bring it into the light. The first thing any motor builder says is ABUSE or RACING. Some times, no and some times. The BIG thing is get a MOTOR WITHOUT THE PARTS YOU PAIDED FOR.:mad:That's just plain THEFT. :mad: These are the guys I want held accountable. Brenchracing is one thing, Ripoff is something else.:mad: Standing behind there products going a long way in todays society of the Club Cobra members. I am not looking to destroy every engine builder, just make know who is not doing the right thing. Rick L.

Rick is absolutely right. The builders that stand behind their product should be lauded for their efforts and it seems Keith Craft is one of those engine builders. The engine builders that provide little or no customer service or do not stand their product should be exposed so that other unsuspecting (or even the suspecting) consumers are informed.

The tittle of this thread is confusing to me. It has both Roush and World Products in it. Additionally some company names can be very similar. So I ask for some clarity here. I would hate to see the wrong company get bad publicity for another companies deeds.