Although I think Carol is quite the whore these days, I agree with Sal. The one constant in all the possibilities in the Cobra lineage is CS. For instance; if he'd been able to get cheby motors and big Healy body/chassis what would we know as Cobras today? I bet hardly anyone would even remember AC. So regardless of whether he came up with the name Cobra in a dream or that's just BS you still have one equation; no CS= no Cobra.

Steve

[quote=Power Surge;Pretty simple to me.[/QUOTE]

Even simpler-take the people CS hired out of existance-you have no Cobra either as it would have just been an idea with no-one to execute it.The Chicken $hit farmer gets wayyyyyyy too much credit.

Hey, Pop! Tell me that part about the drunk lads under the bridge again!

It's all so edifyin".

Did you know they made small cannons during the war? Wow! How could they ever survive without Mr. Shelby?

IMJO- without Mr. Remington and Mr. Moon, the entire enterprise would have been just a wet dream.

Well "his idea" was also done by...
Cad Allard j2X, Scagletti Corvette, Corvace (AC Ace w/Chevy), Cunningham Specials, Reventlow's Scarab, Max Balchowsky's Old Yeller, Ak Miller’s Caballo de Hierro, all of these cars predate the Cobra and, no doubt, were an inspiration for the Cobra.

Lets face it, we all owe Enzo Ferrari a debt of gratitude. If Ferrari had not thumbed his nose at Ford, Ford would have owned Ferrari and there would have been absolutely no reason for Ford to invest in CS and the Cobra. With out Ford's money CS didn't have a chance to build more than a handful of cars. Look multi-millionaires like Cunningham and Reventlow couldn't pull it off. Who else other than Ford would or could have invested so much? Remember CS had all ready tried GM with the Scaglietti Corvette. They only built three. GM was not about to help anything compete with the Corvette.

"Without those people, Carroll just finds someone else to make his dream come true." Who???

Carroll's first try at a 'Cobra'. One of three '59 Scaglietti Corvettes.

http://www.hohpe.com/Gregor/Events/C...scaglietti.jpg

If I were a betting man (and I'm not) I'd put a few shekels on the fact that AC would have produced its own V8-powered Ace. It would have been Ken Rudd who would have pulled the effective but heavy Ford straight six, that he installed in the first place, and replaced it with the new lightweight Ford lump as and when he could have got his hands on one. It would probably have been called the Ace V8. It would not have had an illustrious racing history and its handling might have been suspect since Phil Remington would not have got his hands on it, nor would Ken Miles have driven the living daylights out of it. Would it have raced at Le Mans etc? Yes, since those "winos under the bridge" (lovely analogy, pure class) had previously run a number of Aces at Le Mans, one of which was a very elegant special-bodied car that makes a Daytona look lumpy (ducks for cover :-)

And what ever was 'wrong' with the Ace - check out its racing history with SCCA!! Don't sound like no dog to me.....

AC would not be a forgotten marque today, cos us members of the AC Owners Club would keep the flag flying and the cars running.

Yep your right eric. Ol CS is the fahter of the kit car. If it wasn't for him the kit car industry wuld be a much different place and we all would be driving vega's.
At least he was smart enough to put in a small block, it all went to sh!t when they decided to drop in a FE:JEKYLHYDE Dont make me go there:mad:

McVette

Wikipedia
 

Someone who knows about Wikipedia should fix it. I have no idea how to change the wrong info reflecting all the AC crap.

.

Trevor
You are right that AC was profitable but I have read it was in other areas of business not cars. Correct me please....

Tom,
Someday we will write about KMS, and yes there are a great number of people involved at making the company a success, however you will get the credit as your family pulled it all together starting in Poland, then Utah, then your facility and hopefully one in my garage some day.

CS did surround himself with talent but I would argue so do all successful ventures/business men and women. CS was the Team Leader thus the credit goes to him. Sal is right, without CS in the day we all may be writing about the Rover powered ACE. :LOL:

Has anybody ever heard the theory that if a room full of monkeys were allowed to type for a million years, they would eventually reproduce all the classics in the British Museum? Probably not relevant to banality of the current thread.

i just love that winos under the River Thames Bridge thang...

For me Shel's ungrateful insult remains the complete essence of a full combo plate of sour grapes, upper-West Side un-nuanced jutzpah and tempting the fickle finger of fate. The Herlocks trusted CS and invested in his idea(s) with faith and hope for the results. To insult the chaps was more than a little unforgiving; since without their personal financial support, excellent engineering and foundational chassis-set shipped on credit, poor as a pissoir CS would have gone nowhere as a health-limited former Championship driver with an rather common for the times idea.

It took CS the better part of nearly 50 years to get an aly engine in that "ox-cart" thing and it still doesn't have DOHC, FI, variable timing, stratified charging, etc, etc. Of course, history doesn't require it, but remember nominal history didn't include an aly block either. But, that's where Miles, Shelby and others really wanted FORD to spend their money, certainly NOT on that iron lump homologated for NASCAR and NHRA. But, who payeth the fiddler, calleth the engineth or some such ditty.
--------
Ps: one man's banality is another man's joie de vivre. Think of the comparison as a low temperature subset of Terrorist v Patriot. Of course, it helps if you were there at the time, but it certainly isn't necessary for either enjoyment or comprehension. One man's banality might be another's rewarding inquiry. Cannot imagine reading something i wouldn't enjoy or appreciate reading. For instance, one man's droll criticism might be another's wet blanket.

Hi Jeff

Indeed AC was very much into 'other things' but its lucrative government contract was in the 'automotive' category - just. BUT shall we consider, as well, that car companies such as Lotus and Porsche (off the top of my head - there are others) made their real profits from outside contractor work for other businesses, not the building and flogging of expensive motors...? Ask GM if there's money in making cars

I have to agree with WhazzaThingy that the insult hurled in AC's direction was beyond bad manners, no matter how many glasses of sherry said gentleman had quaffed. That's the point where respect goes out the window.

anyway, all this hypothetic nonsense is so far into the realms of If, But and Maybe that is not worth discussing further. Ciao.

The AACA does not have an on-line version of their magazine. Should anyone have the recent edition and a scanner, would provide additional history and background on A.C.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/lounge/92109-1937-c-16-80-a.html

Geat Asp;

I think the saying is "Whomever wins the war writes the history books". And, so far, 'Ol $hell's legal machine is undefeated.

Bryon

P.S. I paid to have me dash autographed by Mr. Shelby. Does that make me part of the problem?

LOL, no it does not make you part of the problem.

To me, anyone that gets anything signed by Shel has their own reasons for it. Not really my concern to pass judgement on that, and it might make your car worth more. (I dunno) :JEKYLHYDE

I have not been a Shelby fan for a lot of reasons that I will not go into. But I personally would have to give him the credit for the little Cobra, as well as other products and events (the above mentioned LeMans win as an example).

It could be said, and reasonably so, that without certain people on the team (either helping or directing) that the results might have been mixed. Yet here we are and things are the way they are.

After all, what does the CS in CSX stand for?

My opinion only, no haters plz. :3DSMILE:

E

PS McD00, we have all seen your posts. You need new material. Instead of typing the same thing over and over again just refer to the following number system:

1. I sold my SPF to get a roof (and it leaks)
2. FE's are junk
3. I was run into on a parking lot

So now you can post much faster like this.

My "3", caused "1", and a throw in a #"2" for good measure. We will all know what you are talking about.....for a change.

uh...just an FYI, the C in CSX does not stand for Carroll. ;) Just as the C in COX or COB does not stand for Carroll.

Would Rudd have gone for the Ford V8 or a domestic UK motor. I believe The 6 was sourced from the Mk2 Zephyr. It was soon after the Ford small block apeared that Rover produced it's aluminium Buick derived V8. I think the P5 apeared in about 66 with the 3.5

I reckon it would have been a better motor for a sporting car power plant at the time considering it's light weight.

The Rover 3.5 motor has evolved into several successful racing engines. I think the Repco Brabham V8 is based on that bottom end.

Cheers

Ah-Ha! I stand corrected. (wuts the "S" stand for?:p)

E :D

(wuts the "S" stand for?)

Scary fast, maybe????????????????

KC

The 'S' stood for cars shipped to Shelby The 'X' was for export and the 'B' was for Britain (right hand drive).