Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by mhs6631

In 1964 I saw my 1st Cobra in person at a fair. The car was red with black interior. Nowhere on the car did it say Shelby. On the hood was an ac emblem and on the rear trunk lid. I believe it said 'powered by Ford' on each side. In searching car magazines to learn more about this beautiful creation, the term ac cobra was universally used to refer to the car. In 1968, my neighbor purchased a mustang shelby gt 500. It said shelby on the hood and trunk. I believe the mustangs were the 1st auto to be graced with the shelby name. Only years later did c. shelby proclaim the ac cobra to be henceforth called the shelby cobra-long after production ceased.

You're correct that the leaf spring cars for the US (CSX) did not say Shelby on them. They used one of three different Cobra emblems on the nose and boot and Powered By Ford on the sides. The COB and COX cars used AC emblems on the nose and boot and no Powered By Ford emblems. Early cars did not have A.C. Cars foot box tags, later leaf spring cars did have this tag.

427 Cobras had one of three foot box tags. The comp. and S/C models, along with some street cars, used foot box tags that read Manufactured by Shelby American Inc. (No snake emblem on the tag) The narrow hipped 427's as well as some mid-numbered cars used the same A.C. Cars tag as the leaf spring cars. The third plate used on most cars over CSX3300 included the 1967 style coiled snake on the Manufactured by Shelby American Inc. plate. Some early 427's unsold by late 1966 were "updated" to '67 models with new VIN plates.
So it is the 427 Cobras that first displayed the Shelby American name.

[trularin]

I suppose if enough people were to complain to Wiki, they might actually do something.

[CobraEd]

It doesn't matter if you love the guy or hate him. He did create the car.

Kind of a shame the car is mis-represented like this.

.

[Cobrabill]

[quote=CobraEd;Kind of a shame the car is mis-represented like this.[/QUOTE]


Ed,once more with clarity,please.

[Goober]

Let's see, AC cars shipped rollers to Shelby in California early on (289 Models). Shelby installed motor and trans.
Hmmmm, doesn't Superformance and Backdraft do the same thing?
Not talking about the 427 versions in this segment
Shelby was the key, Fords money and ACs hardware were the backbone

Mark

[JBo]

same deal with 427's

[RedCSX1]

Originally Posted by Goober

Let's see, AC cars shipped rollers to Shelby in California early on (289 Models). Shelby installed motor and trans.
Hmmmm, doesn't Superformance and Backdraft do the same thing?
Not talking about the 427 versions in this segment
Shelby was the key, Fords money and ACs hardware were the backbone

Mark

First one had a 260 ci V8 install by Dean Moon's guys. Some people involvement did not come onto the scene till much later. But Carroll's idea and he was the Idea guy, Boss and Marketer.

[Goober]

Yes Morgan, it was a 260 and he and Moon went out to find Corvettes to race and couldn't find any. The motor that was shipped to AC in England for initial fitting was a 221 and is owned by a guy in Scotland. The 260 was the first installed and driven in California.

Mark

[brettco]

Anyone remember the story in one of the kit car mags. about the guy that claimed to have built all the 427 cobras and had some templets and patterns to back it up? Shelby said that this guy was full of s--t. Is there anywhere I can read that again? Thanks.

[Historybuff]

While the general thrust of the remarks so far seem to be either crediting Shelby for his inspiration of using an American engine in a foreign car or minimizing his contribution, I believe , after talking to several people who were around in the '60s, that while it was true it was not Shelby's idea alone to put an American small block engine in a European car, the thing that made his idea "jel" was that he not only was offering a car but himself along with it as as a promotable personality. It's the same thing as Roush today. Jack Roush is not as slick a salesman, and probably a frumpy dresser, so he didn't get the contract to build Ford GTs and Saleen did though Roush had many more facilities and at least 20 Ford contracts already at the time. Saleen was the more promotable personality at the time. Car companies not only choose products to promote but often personalities to tie in with the products and Shelby, with his LeMans win behind him, cowboy ten gallon hat, Texas twang , etc. etc. was far more promotable than all the guys who installed V8s in foreign cars before him. And Shelby did dutifully man the booth at the New York Auto Show where they premiered the Cobra, and many other booths besides..and is still doing it several decades later. So while it's true he received Cobras ready-made except for engine and trans from the UK, without his charisma and personality, Ford wouldn't have written him the check to get the ball rolling.

As far as comparisons with Cunningham, Cunningham never had the drive to keep competing with his cars at LeMans, where Shelby did, and it was the racing successes of the Cobra that built the reputation of the marque. I knew Briggs Cunningham but consider his car activities to have been more of a rich man's hobby. I never met Reventlow but I don't think he was ever interested in production street models, so to say Cunningham and Reventlow failed while Shelby succeeded isn't quite accurate. Cunningham made street models but they were biased toward luxury, more so than the Cobras, and Reventlow was only concerned with the next race car. It was when his F1 car was a complete flop that he yielded to the writing on the wall that he wasn't cut out to be an automaker.

I agree with Mr. Legate, that to characterize AC as a company with no money at the time Shelby approached them is wrong; they were not about to go broke and it has come out since that they still had about 100 Bristol engines in stock, enough to probably last them a year or two. It's just that Shelby was bringing the promise of working with a legendary American automaker with him.

Later on it seems they regretted giving the Texan so much rope, so they he got more publicity than they did but the fact is that they weren't doing that much with the AC roadster and it would be but a mere footnote in history if it wasn't for the Texan

[What'saCobra?]

Psst! History Buff!
It isn't sensible for an informed historian to mention any reason(s) lance went out of the race car business without mentioning the IRS and the issuance of a historically significant IRS ruling about Lance's activities. i leave it to you to get the rest of the story for yourself, as i know you would prefer to do...

IT is the foundational reason why CS was able to acquire the use of Princeton Street location and hire Phil Remmington.

[MrMagoo]

I think the "Cobra" mystique is comprised of several separate things: A fine spartan postwar British sportscar with timeless lines, the platform of choice for some excellent Ford powerplants, the Shelby racing team (drivers, pit crews, engineering, and team manager Carroll Smith), and of course the street production side. Shelby was amazingly effective at bringing them all together. Would there be a "Cobra" legend as we know it today without Shelby... NO WAY. While ultimately all of the "real" work was done by others, he is the one indispensable man in all of this, and the "magic" ingredient. For all his faults, he put his name on the line, was successful, and he deserves significant recognition.

[CobraEd]

I have a large numbered photograph print hanging in my garage of the Shelby shop in the 60s with numerous Cobras and GT40s in various stages of being built. These cars were all taken apart, and up on stands with guys all over the place working on them. Doesnt that mean that Shelby built them?? WTF!

What I don't understand is how for 40 years, it was always a "Shelby Cobra". The car was always considered to be a Shelby creation by virtually everyone, and now all of a sudden in 2008, it is up for grabs?????????

I just don't get it


.

[mhs6631]

I agree with you. The majic was Shelby in promoting the car into the american consciousness in the sixties. The venture was not financially sucessful so he went on to chili, africa, etc.

[Historybuff]

I heard that the IRS told Reventlow they didn't consider his business a business but a hobby (especially since he wasn't advertising cars for sale, which at least Cunningham was) so he wouldn't be able to continue to write off his expenses of building cars, campaigning them etc. I understand the IRS is more or less the same today-- if you have a business going for 5 years and never turn a profit for five years, then as far as they are concerned, it's a hobby. If you are an IRS employee, let me know if I am wrong.I also believe that Shelby-American never was profitable in the days they built Cobras, that everything was re-billed to Ford. There is an invoice in one of the Dave Friedman books for a Cobra that says right on it first bill Shelby American and then something like "rebill to Ford". Supposedly the reason that Shelby American was set up separately from Ford was sort of to have a "deniability" factor--if it turned out sour, Ford could cancel the contract and let them go off on their own.

There never would have been a need for Shelby American if Briggs Cunningham would have kept building his own cars and had a better powerplant--that Chrysler Hemi was too heavy, and Cunningham, for a sports car guy, didn't concentrate enough on lightweight roadsters, and they cost him too much to make in Italy to have a ghost of a chance of making a profit. But going back to a "promotable personality," Briggs Cunningham was already a multi-millioniare (his middle name was "Swift "as in Swift Meat Packing fortune) so asking him to schlep around to car dealerships and tout cars would have been a stretch, as such might conflict with his yachting or vacation trips to the Continent and so forth. Shelby was poor as a churchmouse so more amenable to signing up for a deal where he would be required to make rounds of car dealerships and car shows and "man the booth," wherever his sponsor required. And that brings us to the Shelby Mustang. If Ford's deal with Shelby had begun and ended just with the Cobra, we would be talking about a smaller footprint in history but when the GT40 came along and he helped reconfigure a dog to be competitive and the Shelby Mustang came along and resulted in a car that could be mass produced in the USA, the Shelby connection began to pay off for Ford. So in sum, he was the right guy with the right idea at the right time and regardless of what he's done since, he is a giant in American auto history.

[Dan Stryffeler]

One definition of luck is putting yourself in a position to take advantage of opportunity when it comes along. As I recall (and I'm NO historian) Shelby had been shopping his idea for a race car around for quite some time, then he was at lunch with a reporter (forget his name) who happened to mention that AC would no longer have the engine available, around the same time he found out about the lightweight Ford smallblock and jumped on the opportunity. If that is true, Shelby "created" the Cobra concept... IMHO it doesn't really matter that the concept of a American engine in a European body wasn't new - those cars were not Cobras, and certainly alot of people contributed to the design and development of the Cobra.

I'm admittedly a little jaded on the value of this kind of stuff; it makes good reading and I would like to see those individuals get credit for their accomplishments, but heck, most Americans still believe that Henry Ford invented the automobile!

Dan

[Historybuff]

Regarding Goober’s comment that the first Cobra had a 221 cu. in. engine while it was in its birthplace of Thames-Ditton, Surrey, I wonder if the Scottish owner knows what marque and chassis number car it was installed in while still at AC? Or was that in an AC still bearing the AC chassis number?

I read that Shelby went over to the UK and tested a car at Silverstone with this engine.


The most repeated story is that this car was later shipped sans engine to Dean Moon’s shop and there received a 260 cu. in. engine.
The car’s serial number is given as CSX2000
and there’s pictures of it on this website

http://www.csxinfo.net/csx2000/page4.htm

A prominent LA car collector has a very early Cobra. I didn’t know what the chassis number was until today—Oct. 24th,2008 when on a website called
http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=801.0
they said
“ The following is from VeloceToday.com September 17, 2007

"A unique centerpiece will be the very first production Shelby Cobra, CSX2001, being restored for this occasion through the car’s owner and Chairman of the Petersen’s Checkered Flag 200 Group, Bruce Meyer."


They show a picture of the car, captioning it: "Shelby Cobra roadster s/n CSX2001 undergoing restoration by Mike McCluskey in California. This first production Cobra will be on display at the Petersen Museum for the tribute dinner, "An Evening with Carroll Shelby." Only Shelby himself owns an earlier Cobra, Prototype s/n CSX2000."

Another guy on the same site says:
-------------------------------------------
CSX2259
Newbie

Offline

Posts: 42




Re: 1963 REIMS, FRANCE AC COBRA
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2008, 11:42:35 AM »
________________________________________

Also of interest is the badging on the nose of the car, it uses both the first and second design badges. This car was the first production car assembled and to competition specification by Ed Hugus (east coast assembler and distributor for "SAI") for his friend. This car would be the first cobra sold to the public and the first competition car sold to the public by "SAI"......

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Much earlier, in a very old magazine, and I can’t find the reference, I read that the chassis number of the first Cobra ever built was CSX1001 but I guess a car builder can choose any numbering system he wants and before Shelby began production he
decided to make the first series a series beginning with the number “2”.

All this is background leading up to my question: What was the designated make and chassis number of the car that Shelby tested with the 221 cu. in. V8 in England?

If nobody knows that, another long-time unanswered question that floats around in my head is: “Has it ever been printed what the chassis number was the early 260 Cobra that Ford had, with the windshield not having a metal frame ( maybe it was plexiglass but still sized as high as a normal windshield, not a racing windscreen though I believe it had curved edges)?"

I know that this car was photographed at Ford’s Dearborn Proving Grounds because I recognized the fence (designed by Thomas Jefferson) as the one which I once scaled in a failed attempt to shoot pictures of upcoming cars.

I suspect that this was a very very early Cobra, perhaps CSX2000 and know that Ford tested the Cobra early on, but never read any reference to the chassis number of the one they tested in Dearborn.


In one of the old issues of Shelby American, they interviewed a former Ford engineer that said he tested an early Cobra with the requirement that the car be made suitable "for Mrs. Ford to drive" and that he tried many combinations of shock absorbers and springs until he got the car so it could handle. I suspect this might be the same car, but never subsequently saw a picture of Mrs. Ford (either the original Mrs. Henry Ford II or the second Italian-born Mrs. Henry Ford II) with "her car."

[Goober]

History Buff, I have somewhere info about the guy in Scotland with the 221. I will have to dig it out. I lived there 20 years working in the North Sea Oil and got to meet a lot of people in the UK who were AC nuts. Of course, Ken Rudd was probalby at the top of the list instead of CS. The person who owns the 221 knows the history of the motor. I believe it was fitted to the very first car that came to the US. Motor mounts fitted with the 221 and then removed to make way for the 260 that CS had in Calif. I'm almost sure this same car was airfreighted to the U.S.

Mark

[What'saCobra?]

Yes, HistoryB, the Reventlov case was a landmark IRS ruling (they are rather rare), upon which all of the ensuing litigation depends regarding "hobby losses". Obviously, Lance lost the case, but not without trying to win it.
His mom, Betty Hutton, wife of Comte danois Haugwitz-Reventlov paid the tax bill for sonny. He was pretty pissed and mortally embarrassed about the whole thing. He walked away in anger, which made Remmington and the Princeton Street facility available for Shelby. But, he was a great driver in his best years, with great car control.

CobraEd
Naw, it has NOT always been a Shelby Cobra, as you likely know. In the early years, Shelby was a nobody in the world of manufacturers or designers and AC Cars Limited was tres famuse, having won their classes all over the world, including SCCA Nationals and Championships. FORD certainly did not want THEIR name on it, other than the engine, for liability limitation purposes.
So, the 260 and 289's were called an AC Cobra. Look at the early brochures. Look at the early articles (though a few friends took liberties in Shelby's interests in a few places). As Shelby became more famous and won Championships with the car, AC were soon enough left roadside. Neither dishonest (precisely) nor necessary to AC success. They were happy to build more high quality Cobras per month than any company has ever been able to duplicate since, until Superformance. Though the build quality of the later AC cars were of even higher quality under Brian Angliss.
The Shelby Team did a great job and AC did their part, for which they were justly paid by FORD.
Carroll deserves all the praise he can garner, along with all the other chaps.
It is also accurate, however, to criticize some of the improper and wrongful practices he has associated with from time to time.
Famously, my favorite gripe in the day was shipping 428's and calling them 427's, at the same price.

[franklin]

If you read down to the Coupe Coupes section, click on the silver / gray picture, it says "Peter Brock's Daytona Coupe, taken the day before he died". Picture dated September 2006???? Huh? Who did I listen to then at Kirkham's openhouse?